Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 85 (8937 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 09-19-2019 3:15 PM
29 online now:
Chatting now:  , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,
Newest Member: ssope
Happy Birthday: AdminPhat
Post Volume:
Total: 861,793 Year: 16,829/19,786 Month: 954/2,598 Week: 200/251 Day: 29/59 Hour: 5/3


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev1
2
3456
...
21NextFF
Author Topic:   Old Laws Still Valid?
NOT JULIUS
Member (Idle past 2732 days)
Posts: 219
From: Rome
Joined: 11-29-2006


Message 16 of 303 (367563)
12-03-2006 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by PurpleTeddyBear
12-03-2006 11:06 AM


Re: Did Christ abolish the laws in OT
Hi Purple,

You are taxing too much old Pilate's brain. :=). Anyway, here is a possible talk between Mom & Kid, an 8 year old.

Mom: Kid, you must eat 3x a day to be healthy.
Kid: Got it Mom, eat 3x a day to be healthy.

Then the kid got sick (possibly too fat) and on advice of the doctor, the kid has to omit his dinner.

Mom: Kid, don't eat your dinner for the next 3 days according to Doctor.

Kid: (Sobbing). Mom, you lied! You told me to eat 3x a day.

Mom: Kid, I'll never lie to you. I want you to be HEALTHY But, the doctor said, that to be healthy, you have to eat 2x day only. Your quite overweight.

Analysis: Mom's INTENT was for kid to be HEALTHY. The implementation ( the letter of mom's law) changed--from 3x a day to 2x a day.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by PurpleTeddyBear, posted 12-03-2006 11:06 AM PurpleTeddyBear has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by PurpleTeddyBear, posted 12-04-2006 11:41 AM NOT JULIUS has responded

  
PurpleTeddyBear
Junior Member (Idle past 4286 days)
Posts: 21
From: Brownsburg, Indiana, USA
Joined: 10-22-2006


Message 17 of 303 (367653)
12-04-2006 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by NOT JULIUS
12-03-2006 1:14 PM


Re: Did Christ abolish the laws in OT
So, God is the Mother - right? The proud always concerned and loving parent?

Who is the Doctor?

Or is Jesus the Mother, I the child and God the doctor?


We are born, we live then we die.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by NOT JULIUS, posted 12-03-2006 1:14 PM NOT JULIUS has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by NOT JULIUS, posted 12-04-2006 12:14 PM PurpleTeddyBear has not yet responded

  
NOT JULIUS
Member (Idle past 2732 days)
Posts: 219
From: Rome
Joined: 11-29-2006


Message 18 of 303 (367654)
12-04-2006 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by PurpleTeddyBear
12-04-2006 11:41 AM


Re: Did Christ abolish the laws in OT
Hi Purple Teddy,
So, God is the Mother - right? The proud always concerned and loving parent? Who is the Doctor? Or is Jesus the Mother, I the child and God the doctor?

I respect your way of understanding things and your beliefs.

Gov. Pilate


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by PurpleTeddyBear, posted 12-04-2006 11:41 AM PurpleTeddyBear has not yet responded

  
Sean111
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 303 (367749)
12-04-2006 10:01 PM


Interesting conversation guys.

First I would like to explain why it is believed that the old testament laws are now defunct because this conversation has become all about the 10 commandments and as we know those aren't the only laws that were implemnted by God in the old testament.

1) Sacrifice: Jesus was the perfect lamb. The perfect sacrifice. After his death these the sacrifice of a first born lamb was no longer needed. Jesus paid the price of washing us of our sins.

2) Sabbath days: Sabbath days include all feasts such as Passover. These were days given to Isreal to observe as it was thought on these days that the people were closest to God. With the death of Jesus we can be in constant contact with God through Jesus.

3) Now for the 10 commandments. I believe it was explained a little ealier in this thread. The 10 commandments themselves WERE NOT abolished. In fact Jesus says to follow the law. BUT following them was no longer the way to heaven. Allowing Jesus into your heart and life was now the way to be saved. Jews didnt like this and still don't because they were God's favored people. But this new law allowed Gentiles to go to heaven as well. It leveled the playing field. This is the REAL reason Jesus was crucified because they no longer had power over the people. If everyone was equal what did it mean to be in charge? The became egomaniacs. They felt they were going to heaven because of who their Fathers and Grandfathers were and that their place was already sealed.

I'll close with suggesting everyone read Ephesians 2:13-22.

PS- Someone mentioned Genesis 22:9 & 10. This was a test to see if Abraham truly put God first. Even today we are to put God FIRST in our lives. This story also fortells of Jesus when Abraham tells his son that God will send his own perfect lamb.


Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by iceage, posted 12-06-2006 1:07 AM Sean111 has not yet responded
 Message 28 by arachnophilia, posted 12-07-2006 5:51 PM Sean111 has not yet responded

iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4172 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 20 of 303 (367890)
12-06-2006 1:07 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Sean111
12-04-2006 10:01 PM


Sabbath
sean111 writes:

2) Sabbath days: Sabbath days include all feasts such as Passover. These were days given to Israel to observe as it was thought on these days that the people were closest to God. With the death of Jesus we can be in constant contact with God through Jesus.

This is a piece of theological wrangling. If this is the case why was Jesus such a poor communicator? Why didn't Jesus just communicate it as plainly as you just did? This position I am sure is buttressed with numerous NT quotes but it takes a lot of reading between the lines and some imagination.

Conversely, however Exodus states in very plain and clear language:

Exodus 31 writes:

31:16 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

Two points to note:

  • First the Sabbath was so serious and important the the Death penalty was commanded for its violation. You would think that if this convent was overturned there might be some clearly worded statement indicating so.

  • Second is the use of the phase "throughout their generations" and the precise no quibbling statement "perpetual covenant".

    Also, you would think that the text would have given a little foreshadowing of another later covenant, but no it states it clearly. Other translations have it as "eternal agreement" or "everlasting covenant".

    I often wondered about Christians that frequently go out for brunch or breakfast after church on Sunday. Ah a time to relax and enjoy fellowship. However, by doing so they deny others, ie. restaurant employees and hospitality staff, from enjoying the same privilege.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 19 by Sean111, posted 12-04-2006 10:01 PM Sean111 has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 21 by Jaderis, posted 12-06-2006 4:49 AM iceage has not yet responded
     Message 22 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-06-2006 1:59 PM iceage has responded
     Message 25 by anastasia, posted 12-06-2006 11:13 PM iceage has not yet responded

  • Jaderis
    Member (Idle past 1683 days)
    Posts: 622
    From: NY,NY
    Joined: 06-16-2006


    Message 21 of 303 (367899)
    12-06-2006 4:49 AM
    Reply to: Message 20 by iceage
    12-06-2006 1:07 AM


    Re: Sabbath
    I often wondered about Christians that frequently go out for brunch or breakfast after church on Sunday. Ah a time to relax and enjoy fellowship. However, by doing so they deny others, ie. restaurant employees and hospitality staff, from enjoying the same privilege.

    Yeah and then they leave them $.50 and some "Here's a TIP: Jesus Chist is your savior" tract.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 20 by iceage, posted 12-06-2006 1:07 AM iceage has not yet responded

      
    Hyroglyphx
    Member
    Posts: 5805
    From: Austin, TX
    Joined: 05-03-2006
    Member Rating: 2.6


    Message 22 of 303 (367979)
    12-06-2006 1:59 PM
    Reply to: Message 20 by iceage
    12-06-2006 1:07 AM


    Re: Sabbath
    If this is the case why was Jesus such a poor communicator?

    If Jesus was such a poor communicator, why is He the most quoted person in human history? Seems to me that if He can speak to us after two thousand years that He is, perhaps, the greatest Orator of all time.

    Why didn't Jesus just communicate it as plainly as you just did?

    Profundity is often found in cryptic statements that forces the listener/reader to ponder. Parables do just that. I think we all know quite a few maxims and proverbs, that in one sentence, can alter how we view a certain subject, or that its simplicity finds its mark with superb accuracy. Parables summarize an entire story in just a few, carefully placed words.

    If you want Jesus to speak plainly, you are going to have to wait for His advent.

    "O my people, hear my teaching; listen to the words of my mouth. I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter hidden things, things from of old." -Psalm 78:1-2

    "The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?" He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. This is why I speak to them in parables:

      "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people's heart has become calloused they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'

    But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it." -Matthew 13:10-13

    "Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father. In that Day you will ask in my Name. I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf. No, the Father Himself loves you because you have loved Me and have believed that I came from God. I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father."

    Then Jesus' disciples said, "Now you are speaking clearly and without figures of speech. Now we can see that you know all things and that you do not even need to have anyone ask you questions. This makes us believe that you came from God."

    "You believe at last!" Jesus answered. "But a time is coming, and has come, when you will be scattered, each to his own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me.

    "I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." -John 16:25-33

    Exodus 31 writes:

    31:16 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

    31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

    "One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. The Pharisees said to him, "Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?"

    He answered, "Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions."

    Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath." -Mark 2:23-28

    I often wondered about Christians that frequently go out for brunch or breakfast after church on Sunday. Ah a time to relax and enjoy fellowship. However, by doing so they deny others, ie. restaurant employees and hospitality staff, from enjoying the same privilege.

    How do they "deny" others from the same privilege? Those employees are slotted to work that day from their management. And when I have to work on Sundays, I do so. Just so you know, the Sabbath is every day. And the Sabbath has two purposes-- one spiritual, the other practical. The practical portion is that every person should be entitled to at least one day of rejuvenation. The other is about entering into rest with the Lord.

    "For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith. Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,

      "So I declared on oath in my anger, 'They shall never enter my rest.' "And yet his work has been finished since the creation of the world. For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: "And on the seventh day God rested from all his work." And again in the passage above he says, "They shall never enter my rest."

    It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience. Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before:

      "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts."

    For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. 11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience." -Hebrews 4:2-11

    As the Proverbs say, "There is no rest for the wicked."

    Edited by nemesis_juggernaut, : typo


    "With derision the atheist points out that there can be no God because this world is so unfair. Without hesitation, I concur with him. Indeed, we live in an unfair world because of all sorts of social ills and perils. I must not contend with such a sentiment because it is factual-- we don't live in a fair world. Grace is unambiguous proof that we live in an unfair world. I received salvation when I deserved condemnation. Yes, indeed this world is unfair." -Andrew Jaramillo-
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 20 by iceage, posted 12-06-2006 1:07 AM iceage has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 23 by kuresu, posted 12-06-2006 3:07 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded
     Message 24 by iceage, posted 12-06-2006 5:52 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

      
    kuresu
    Member (Idle past 771 days)
    Posts: 2544
    From: boulder, colorado
    Joined: 03-24-2006


    Message 23 of 303 (368003)
    12-06-2006 3:07 PM
    Reply to: Message 22 by Hyroglyphx
    12-06-2006 1:59 PM


    Re: Sabbath
    Cicero is much better, he was just forgotten (after all, he's a pagan). Oh, and we actually have what he himself wrote. unlike for several numerous people, such as Jesus or Socrates.

    being the most quoted person in history does not a great(est) orator make.

    For all those who think I'm atheist, I've had a change of heart. I now follow the teachings of the wise and great Yoda, who once spoke to the first disciple Luke "Do, or do not, there is no try". I follow it to the letter--I do not.


    Want to help give back to the world community? Did you know that your computer can help? Join the newest TeamEvC Climate Modelling to help improve climate predictions for a better tomorrow.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 22 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-06-2006 1:59 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

      
    iceage 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 4172 days)
    Posts: 1024
    From: Pacific Northwest
    Joined: 09-08-2003


    Message 24 of 303 (368043)
    12-06-2006 5:52 PM
    Reply to: Message 22 by Hyroglyphx
    12-06-2006 1:59 PM


    Re: Sabbath
    nj writes:

    If Jesus was such a poor communicator, why is He the most quoted person in human history?

    Immaterial to the point and only true in our culture.

    Profundity is often found in cryptic statements that forces the listener/reader to ponder.

    Cryptic leads to confusion. The 1000 versions of christianity and sects are evidence of that.

    Nevertheless, ignore that, you missed the entire point!

    The point is maybe Jesus did not really say what the prior poster indicating he was saying. Many modern day Christians leaverage the cryptic parts to meet their own modern day requirements.

    Conversly the OT scriptures about the Sabbath are clear and straightforward. The one i quoted is one of many. You ignored this point.

    What part of "perpetual covenant" or "eternal agreement" or "everlasting covenant" is ambiguous. Either the new age interperation of the Sabbath is wrong or the OT statement of perpetual is wrong. Please explain.

    Yes Jesus demonstrated that it was OK to do good on Sabbath or in extreme measures violate some of the laws. But stopped there, contemporary progressive Christian's have grealy extrapolated beyond the point because it is difficult to follow and PTB's point of this topic.

    nj writes:

    How do they "deny" others from the same privilege? Those employees are slotted to work that day from their management. And when I have to work on Sundays, I do so.

    Very simple economics. Yes, they are slotted because you are using the services on the Sabbath. If you stayed at home they to could enjoy the Sabbath and rest as God commanded them. You are contributing to their delinquency.

    Just so you know, the Sabbath is every day.

    Extrabiblical extrapolations! The scripture you spouted do not support this.

    Here is one from Jesus.

    Matthew 24:20 writes:

    And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.

    This means that Christ expected the Sabbath to be kept and it was not "every day".

    Or even your own Hebrews quote

    Hebrews 4:2-11 writes:


    For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day.

    There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his.

    Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience

    Is a strong statement of Sabbath - not some blurring of the concept.

    Your proverbs quote was a non-sequitur and does not relate.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 22 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-06-2006 1:59 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 26 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-07-2006 3:46 PM iceage has responded

    anastasia
    Member (Idle past 4210 days)
    Posts: 1857
    From: Bucks County, PA
    Joined: 11-05-2006


    Message 25 of 303 (368099)
    12-06-2006 11:13 PM
    Reply to: Message 20 by iceage
    12-06-2006 1:07 AM


    Re: Sabbath
    I haven't the time tonight for a complete response to the OP. There are some good ones already posted. But here's one quick question/observation.
    iceage writes:

    First the Sabbath was so serious and important the the Death penalty was commanded for its violation. You would think that if this convent was overturned there might be some clearly worded statement indicating so.

    I think Sean111 made a mistake in lumping the Sabbath in with all the other feast days. Personally I do not think the covenant was overturned in the same way as Passover, for example. I am wondering to you, and perhaps Sean111 and NJ, what makes you think the Sabbath is no longer law, if anything? More precisely, is there a particular denominational teaching which says that the Sabbath is abolished? In my religion (Byzantine Catholicism) and others, not keeping the Sabbath is still a punishable offense (by God, of course, not with death) and is regarded 100 percent as part of the 10 commandments that were not abolished.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 20 by iceage, posted 12-06-2006 1:07 AM iceage has not yet responded

      
    Hyroglyphx
    Member
    Posts: 5805
    From: Austin, TX
    Joined: 05-03-2006
    Member Rating: 2.6


    Message 26 of 303 (368246)
    12-07-2006 3:46 PM
    Reply to: Message 24 by iceage
    12-06-2006 5:52 PM


    Re: Sabbath
    quote:
    If Jesus was such a poor communicator, why is He the most quoted person in human history?

    Immaterial to the point and only true in our culture.

    That isn't immaterial, nor is it only true in our culture (whatever culture that may be), because the gospel is preached on every corner of the globe.

    Cryptic leads to confusion. The 1000 versions of christianity and sects are evidence of that.

    I agree that there are many versions, denominations, and interpretations about Christianity, but the central message is crystal clear. There is something fairly well-known amongst Christians, and those are called the "essentials" and "non-essentials." The essentials lead to salvation and the non-essentials are just as the name implies-- non-essential.

    Some expository examples from Scripture:

    Every Saturday I see people walking to their church on the Sabbath. They don't ride in cars because for some odd reason, walking is considered less work than driving. Anyway, all the women and girls cover their heads. (I think they are Seventh Day Adventists). They have decided that it is a good thing for women to keep their head veiled. So let it be. At the same time, some women do not feel it is necessary to show piety towards God by veiling themselves. So let it be. According to 1st Corinthians 10:13-16, this is a non-essential. Its really not a matter of urgency.

    There is also a considerable amount of controversy concerning the End Times and the Rapture. We have three main divisions, (Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, and Post-Trib). Although I really like eschatology and have my own beliefs, specifically, Pre-Trib, in the end this is the kind of quarreling that can lead to a more serious division in the Church. I think arguing our points is important in honing in on our interpretations, but it can take on an unhealthy approach too.

    In other words, all three groups have some evidence to help support their claim and we can discuss it in a constructive manner, but should it get more serious, this is placing non-essential above the essentials. I mean, all three groups believe that Jesus will return for His Bride. Lets never forget that instead of focusing on when.

    Nevertheless, ignore that, you missed the entire point!

    Did I?

    The point is maybe Jesus did not really say what the prior poster indicating he was saying. Many modern day Christians leaverage the cryptic parts to meet their own modern day requirements.

    How would know either way unless you have some esoteric knowledge that the rest of us aren't privy to? That means that you have some insight on Scripture that they don't. Maybe its your interpretation that's convoluted.

    What part of "perpetual covenant" or "eternal agreement" or "everlasting covenant" is ambiguous. Either the new age interperation of the Sabbath is wrong or the OT statement of perpetual is wrong. Please explain.

    There still is an eternal covenant. We are under a Law of Grace. Jesus is the Lamb. He is the eternal propitiation of sin. Didn't you read Paul's discourse? He explained it perfectly.

    Yes, they are slotted because you are using the services on the Sabbath. If you stayed at home they to could enjoy the Sabbath and rest as God commanded them. You are contributing to their delinquency.

    My staying home means nothing. It would require everyone to follow the Sabbath. Since you are an unbeliever, what reason do you have for observing the Sabbath? I would be "contributing to their delinquency" no more than you would.

    quote:
    Just so you know, the Sabbath is every day.

    Extrabiblical extrapolations! The scripture you spouted do not support this.

    First of all, its biblical, not extra-biblical. Secondly, the Scripture I gave was exactly about that.

    And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.

    This means that Christ expected the Sabbath to be kept and it was not "every day".

    Let me give you a very straightforward passage to help you understand what the Sabbath means and what it doesn't mean.

    "See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.

    For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the Head over every power and authority. In Him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

    When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; He took it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

    Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body." -Colossians 2:8-19

    What does circumcision mean? What does the Sabbath mean? What does animal sacrifice mean? What does the Temple represent? These were shadows of things to come. First man must understand the Law, that he is incapable of keeping it in full in order to understand love and grace, that he needs it. It had to be this way for a season. If the Sabbath or being circumcised becomes a ritual that you do, then it loses its meaning. Its never been about going through the motions. We only thought it was until Mashiach came to give us the bigger picture.

    Many Jews to this day go through repetitious motions, daily, in observance to the Law. There is nothing wrong with keeping the Law. However, being under the Law means being accountable to it. And since no man is good, no, not even one, there must be a propitiation. Jesus is the New Covenant. He is the One who takes away sin, who becomes our Law of Grace, who nailed it all on a cross. He is the Suffering Servant, spoken about in Isaiah. First He had to come as Mashiac ben Yosef. But in a short time, he will come as Mashiac ben David in power and glory and honor, Amen.

    We see people throughout history trying to work their toward God-- trying to gain approval and acceptance. But this is deceiving. This is someone trying to purchase their "fire insurance."


    "With derision the atheist points out that there can be no God because this world is so unfair. Without hesitation, I concur with him. Indeed, we live in an unfair world because of all sorts of social ills and perils. I must not contend with such a sentiment because it is factual-- we don't live in a fair world. Grace is unambiguous proof that we live in an unfair world. I received salvation when I deserved condemnation. Yes, indeed this world is unfair." -Andrew Jaramillo-
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 24 by iceage, posted 12-06-2006 5:52 PM iceage has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 29 by iceage, posted 12-07-2006 11:36 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

      
    arachnophilia
    Member (Idle past 235 days)
    Posts: 9069
    From: god's waiting room
    Joined: 05-21-2004


    Message 27 of 303 (368268)
    12-07-2006 5:37 PM
    Reply to: Message 11 by PurpleTeddyBear
    12-01-2006 2:33 PM


    Re: Morals
    i'm not sure what most of this post has to do with (any of) my comment(s). so i'm going to keep it breif and on-topic, as best as i can. alot of the "off topic" content should probably be considered historical context to the point.

    BUT, but, but - the bible contains some vile stuff. The god of the OT was a ruthless, shameless, vengeful being. Worship him, bow down or there was an AXE to be grinded (in your head).

    that's not exactly true. the bible is a very complex book, any many different opinions and beliefs about god find voice in its multiple texts. simplyfing the text to say that any one image of god is the only one represented is wrong. it is wrong when the fundamentalists do it, and it is wrong when the atheists do it.

    rather, what you will find is that some of the later, minor prophets tend towards a more new-testament style. certainly, jonah is more in line with the proselytizing message of the new testament, and lacks the vengeful, xenophobic attitudes of exodus through deuteronomy. the transition from the old testament is not a sharp contrast. it's not exactly a smooth blend, either, because no texts are present for about 500 years. but it's not like jesus came out of left field. (assuming he existed) he was a 1st century jew, and texts written around him represent 1st century ideas about god. and jesus was not alone in this trend.

    I will also site some other atrocities of the bible in closing.

    ironically, most of the atrocities occur under joshua, during his invasion of the holy land. nearest we can tell with archaeology, that never actually happened.

    One I'd like to consider now is the hardening of the pharos’s heart and the plagues.

    also, doesn't seem to have been a real event.

    God is all powerful, all seeing, all knowing and can do anything.

    again, not reading the bible carefully enough. sometimes, in some books, he is. in other books he does not seem to be. the degree of polytheism, omnipotence, and general grandeur vs human qualities of god varies from source to source. this is to be expected.

    He could have done anything, anything.

    says who?

    let's make an analogy, for a second, using a movie you've probably seen. when i first saw the matrix, i was incredibly frustrated with the movie. here was someone in this system, who not only becomes aware of how to manipulate himself in the system, but the system as well. technically, it seems, neo could have done anything. agent smith? delete. he could have copied himself, instantly relocated by hacking a small coordinate, screw with the system date and time-travel. or better yet, he could have crashed the whole system, ejecting all the citizens, and leaving the machines without any power. game over. and movie over too -- it all could have been over with a few simple thoughts from neo.

    but that, apparently, makes a piss poor story. and it would make a poor story if god suddenly and safely relocated every israelite to the promised land, gave them everything they've ever wanted, and conveniently removed the people who lived there (in such a way that none of them remembered and were all happy elsewhere). everyone wins, right?

    boring story. it needs conflict, because real life is full of conflict. this is an event that defined the birth of judaism, and that needs to be something powerful. it needs to be escaping slavery, former captors giving chase. it needs miracles, and 40 years of wandering in the desert. it needs god showing up and speaking to the crowd. and it needs fighting for what you want. it needs that because people need that.

    there's a reference in the first matrix movie, about the way the matrix was before. they made everyone happy, gave everyone everything they wanted. and the people rejected it by the millions. this is something the authors of the bible understood too: the bible starts with people being given everything they could ever desire. but that's not good enough -- they want choice, and freedom. even if it brings pain, and hardship, because that makes the joy worthwhile.

    that's humanity. and god, it seems, is limited by our free will, and our thoughts. we wouldn't be happy with an "everyone wins" situation.

    He killed the fish! He killed the livestock and other living innocent animals. Then what did the brutal beast do? MURDERED EVERY 1st born.

    so god is qualified to give life, but not to take life? what about dying of old age? isn't that also god murdering people? we could live forever, afterall, because god can do anything.

    Now a days if an author writes lies about a person in their autobiography the person sues. The person demands the work be retracted, changed, stopped or apologized for - RIGHTFULLY SO. Slander or character deformation is bad. . . I do not know god. Nor have I ever know any gods. However, I must assume a god would think the same way.

    why? and i have news for you, the bible has been changed and added to a number of times. not so much because god asked them to change it, but because people debate this stuff. i don't understand why so many people fail to understand this point. there is debate in the bible, just like there is debate on this board. does god demand we retract things we say about him in error or in spite? why would the bible be different, just because people wrongly and ignorantly attribute it to him?

    God knew well in advance all the evil which would be justified using the bible (let's not digress I know there is good too - I am not an idiot, stay with me). If god did not like it he should have sued. God did not act.

    you, like many others, have this mistaken view that religion causes violence or evil. it does not. violence and evil (and good too) are simply parts of human nature. people justify those things with religion, but they justify them with a lot of other things too.

    and much of the evil you seem particularly frustrated about was the ancient hebrew way of keeping and ordered and civil society. the torah was their constitution. yes, they had punishments for crimes, and their laws were a little different than ours. we still put people to death today.

    You do not - you can not. God knew, god allowed and it was so! The bible is something or it is nothing.

    there is a difference between "something" and "everything." it does not have to be the 100% literal inerrant truth and word of god (tm) or completely worthless. it is a set of texts that tells us a lot about the society that wrote it over about 1000 years. it presents many different viewpoints and philosophical positions. it has some really great poetry and music in it. it has some of the oldest erotic literature in it. and it has a lot of stuff that makes commentary on the human condition. even if it's all totally false, it is still worthwhile for those things.

    However, intelligent christians realized by any human moral standard much of the OT was unacceptable. They needed to find a method in which much of the OT could be wiped out or ignored.

    i'm not sure i agree. what in particular do you object to? leviticus? don't be an ancient jewish preist. leviticus deals with ritual cleanliness, and only applies to a small class of people in charge of the temple. by and large most of the law sets up a system of suprisingly just system for airing greivances. (you would know this if you'd read it). commandments to genocide? stop living in indian territory and go back to europe. because that genocide really did happen, and for the same "god given" reasons.

    Jesus was not invented for this purpose. However, he was used for this purpose.

    by some groups. not by others. paul tends to use him this way, and iirc peter does not. the synoptic gospel authors (editors?) did not.

    44% of Christians in this country still accept the bible as the error free word of God. I say with great confidence they have not read it.

    i say with great confidence that you have not either.

    If this law here is no longer to be followed how about this law? If this is a parable here left up to individual interpretation how about this one? If this was a BAD mistranslation how about this? If god is real. . . GOD IS GOD. His law is to be followed and obeyed, period - like it or not. EVERY LAW to the T.

    you're a little too familiar with modern american christendom, because this is a christian perspective. most jews (except maybe the chasidim) do not think this way. they view their god as forgiving, and they have a set system in place for atonement (even without animal sacrifice). how is it that christians (and you) read the old testament and see a harsh and brutal god, and the jews read it and see a forgiving, loving god? maybe you're missing something.

    Do you see my point? This is a very big reason I am troubled by religion.

    perhaps you should make an effort to understand it more. take an academic (not theological) bible class, learn about the history of the text. because all of your problems come from a biased and shallow point of view regarding the bible. you argue out of ignorance, but i promise you that the real problems are there once you understand the text a little more.

    Genesis 22:9 & 10 “And they came to the place which God had told him of and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood. And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.” It matters not that god let Abraham get out of murdering Isaac. To put a knife up to your son’s throat is child abuse.

    perhaps you're reading this wrong, too. christians tend to read this text and say "abraham passed the test of obedience, so god let him go (yay jesus!)". athiests read the text and say "how cruel of god!" but some jews read the text and say "abraham failed."

    look at the context, for a second. abraham goes to abimalech, and says "no no, sarah's my sister, not my wife." he lies. so abimalech takes sarah as his wife, but god stops anything from actually happening. abimalech sends them away, and though he tells abraham he never touched her... abraham has no reason to believe him.

    9 month later, isaac is born. and they have not been able to have kids for, what, 90 years? abraham, being human, most likely doubts that isaac is even his. perhaps the correct response to god asking him to sacrifice his son was "wait, what do you mean, god? no." his motive was not out of obedience of god, but jealousy. jews, all jews, read this text as forbidding human sacrifice. from this story, they take the fact killing people as offerings to god is a bad thing, even if god commands it. curious, no?

    I Kings 3:24-25 “And the king said, Bring me a sword. And they brought a sword before the king. And the king said, Divide the living child in two, and give half to the one, and half to the other." This test was of course given to see who the real mother of the child was. Christians view this king as a wise man.

    again, you miss the point. this one's a little more obvious. solomon never intended to really cut the child in two. but it sounds like a fair solution applied to anything else. there's a dispute? share. one woman agrees -- her motives are greedy. she does not view the child as a person, nor does she care about the child. the other woman says "let the first woman have the child" -- her motives are concern for the child. the real mother would never agree to such a thing in a million years. the one who lets the child go, gets it, and the child is not divided.

    it's not cruel, it's smart. what's cruel is the woman who was willing to take half a baby.

    Shall I present them so you can counter them and make excuses. They are what they are! Sexism,

    hi, welcome to 600bc. that's a good deal before, say, the 1960's. and still we have problems with sexism today. but what's even funnier is the bit from genesis you missed -- patriarchal society is one of the punishments god puts on woman for her sin. highly, highly ironic on the part of the authors. the fact that they even recognize this as a bad thing is surprising.

    racism,

    more like xenophobia or nationalism. technically, almost everyone in the bible is a semite. and again, not present in all the books.


    אָרַח

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 11 by PurpleTeddyBear, posted 12-01-2006 2:33 PM PurpleTeddyBear has not yet responded

    arachnophilia
    Member (Idle past 235 days)
    Posts: 9069
    From: god's waiting room
    Joined: 05-21-2004


    Message 28 of 303 (368271)
    12-07-2006 5:51 PM
    Reply to: Message 19 by Sean111
    12-04-2006 10:01 PM


    1) Sacrifice: Jesus was the perfect lamb. The perfect sacrifice. After his death these the sacrifice of a first born lamb was no longer needed. Jesus paid the price of washing us of our sins.

    allow me to breifly state the obvious. this is a very christian point of view. in the shift between new testament early christianity, and the height and collapse of first temple judaism, this is one of the ideas that changed -- the bit this thread is about. but even jews today do not think like this.

    for instance, jews today do not sacrifice animals. so there is a problem with this argument -- clearly, god does not require sacrifices. rather, god is a forgiving and loving parent.

    you will find that this "harsh, just, angry" old testament god is atcually something of a christian fiction. sacrifices serve a dual purpose, neither of which is actually appeasing god. one purpose is guilt management. it's a voluntary system, and they are called "offerings." the person offers something of theirs because they feel guilty, and punishing yourself helps. it is not a punishment from god. the sin is not forgiven because of the blood, but because of the penitant heart.

    the second purpose was the feed the sons of aaron. levites did no other works, besides maintaining the temple and performing rituals. they were not allowed to work in the field or herd a flock. sacrifices were their only source of food.

    2) Sabbath days: Sabbath days include all feasts such as Passover. These were days given to Isreal to observe as it was thought on these days that the people were closest to God.

    "sabbath" or shabat שבת comes from the word שבע sheba (seven) as in "day seven." really, it only refers to friday nigth and saturday morning. there are other words for other holy days.

    With the death of Jesus we can be in constant contact with God through Jesus.

    i would call a pillar of cloud and fire never leaving one's sight, and a booming voice from the mountain "constant contact."

    3) Now for the 10 commandments. I believe it was explained a little ealier in this thread. The 10 commandments themselves WERE NOT abolished. In fact Jesus says to follow the law.

    "law" in that sense misses the context. when jesus said "law" he meant התורה, ha-torah. literally "the law" but referring to the five books of moshe.

    BUT following them was no longer the way to heaven. Allowing Jesus into your heart and life was now the way to be saved.

    following the law was never a way to heaven. rather, the jews were gauranteed a place, as god's chosen people.

    Jews didnt like this and still don't because they were God's favored people. But this new law allowed Gentiles to go to heaven as well. It leveled the playing field.

    that's not it at all. in fact, books of the old testament (like jonah) contain commandments to proselytize. jews don't like being told that their promise from god is not good enough.

    PS- Someone mentioned Genesis 22:9 & 10. This was a test to see if Abraham truly put God first. Even today we are to put God FIRST in our lives. This story also fortells of Jesus when Abraham tells his son that God will send his own perfect lamb.

    the story also forbids human sacrifice. it's like the flood bit, "never again."

    Edited by arachnophilia, : No reason given.


    אָרַח

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 19 by Sean111, posted 12-04-2006 10:01 PM Sean111 has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 30 by anastasia, posted 12-08-2006 12:59 AM arachnophilia has responded

    iceage 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 4172 days)
    Posts: 1024
    From: Pacific Northwest
    Joined: 09-08-2003


    Message 29 of 303 (368330)
    12-07-2006 11:36 PM
    Reply to: Message 26 by Hyroglyphx
    12-07-2006 3:46 PM


    Re: Sabbath
    iceage writes:


    What part of "perpetual covenant" or "eternal agreement" or "everlasting covenant" is ambiguous. Either the new age interperation of the Sabbath is wrong or the OT statement of perpetual is wrong. Please explain.

    nj writes:

    There still is an eternal covenant. We are under a Law of Grace. Jesus is the Lamb. He is the eternal propitiation of sin. Didn't you read Paul's discourse? He explained it perfectly.

    This is in reference to:

    Exodus 31 writes:


    15 'For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, holy to the LORD; whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall surely be put to death.

    16 'So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.'

    17 "It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever; for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day He ceased from labor, and was refreshed."

    These are supposedly the words of God. This scripture is exceedingly clear and straight forward. How does keeping Sabbath get transformed in to Grace? Very plainly the text refers to the observance of the Sabbath as a covenant. You just did a two-step about we "We are under a Law of Grace." and the "Sabbath is every day" This is not talking about grace but the observance of the Sabbath. Is this not to be taken literally?

    Finally...

    matthew 24:20 in red letter writes:

    And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.

    Jesus thought Sabbath was important and did not equate sabbath with grace or just any ole day. Furthermore Jesus is taking about end-times which has not happened and he projected that Sabbath was important and not "every day". Not any wiggle room.

    Paul is clearly juxtapose to this.

    Either Paul is wrong; or God in Exodus is wrong and Jesus is mistaken.

    If nothing else you are demonstrating the internal inconsistency of the Bible.

    My staying home means nothing. It would require everyone to follow the Sabbath.

    It is called shared responsibility.

    Edited by iceage, : No reason given.

    Edited by iceage, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 26 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-07-2006 3:46 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    anastasia
    Member (Idle past 4210 days)
    Posts: 1857
    From: Bucks County, PA
    Joined: 11-05-2006


    Message 30 of 303 (368357)
    12-08-2006 12:59 AM
    Reply to: Message 28 by arachnophilia
    12-07-2006 5:51 PM


    Nemesis did a pretty good job of explaining why it is said that Jesus abolished 'the Law'. Jesus made much of the letter of the law symbolic while yet grasping the intentions.

    Christians, like Jews, do not believe in a harsh God. At least, I have never felt that way at all. Perhaps all the talk of 'sacrifice' is misleading. Jesus' death was the sacrifice which abolishes all need for sacrifice. Yet, though all christians hold this doctrine, they do not follow it in the same way as Catholics. Catholics believe in the perpetual sacrifice of Jesus in the Eucharist, a practice that was deplorable to Luther. During the Reformation, all mention of 'sacrifice' was removed from the liturgy, and the altar of sacrifice became a table for eating. Even the rites of ordination were changed to remove all mention of the priest 'sacrificing' anything. During the second vatican Council in 1962, ecumenically minded Catholics conceded to these changes and turned all altars toward the people, removing all mention of 'sacrifice' from the prayers. This has alienated many Catholics who feel that the Bible clearly does not allow for the breaking of the law to this degree.

    Other than this, sacrificing of animals or people is not required, although personal sacrifice as penance, and offerings to the church or 'temple' are also maintained as law.

    arachnophilia writes:

    following the law was never a way to heaven. rather, the jews were gauranteed a place, as god's chosen people.

    Nemesis used the word 'heaven' here. I undestand that Jews do not truly believe in heaven? But still, his meaning is clear enough. I am curious, though, when you say the Jews were guaranteed a place, do you mean a place in heaven? Or were you emphasizing the 'guarantee'? That all Jews were chosen just because they were Jewish, and in spite of the law?

    that's not it at all. in fact, books of the old testament (like jonah) contain commandments to proselytize. jews don't like being told that their promise from god is not good enough.

    I am curious about this as well. What exactly is their promise from God? I am asking because with a christian background, I have heard that their promise was that they would be the only ones to keep the true faith, and would be rewarded for their faithfulness by receiving the Messiah into their nationality. It is because of this belief that christians feel the Jews have kept the promise and the law, ensuring the proper atmosphere for recognition of the messiah, and that now the law is more or less unnecessary since the goal has been accomplished.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 28 by arachnophilia, posted 12-07-2006 5:51 PM arachnophilia has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 32 by arachnophilia, posted 12-09-2006 12:35 AM anastasia has responded

      
    Prev1
    2
    3456
    ...
    21NextFF
    Newer Topic | Older Topic
    Jump to:


    Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

    ™ Version 4.0 Beta
    Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019