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Author Topic:   Is it Rape or Not
Taz
Member (Idle past 1551 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 211 of 260 (367719)
12-04-2006 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by NOT JULIUS
12-04-2006 4:49 PM


Re: God Allowed Rape?
pilate writes:

Just when was there a clear boundary of "during" and "after" the war.


After one side has either surrendered or defeated. When Jericho's wall was breached and its people in chains, I'd say that's a pretty clear indication that at least the war with that particular city was over.


Place yourself on the map at http://www.frappr.com/evc

The thread about this map can be found here.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by NOT JULIUS, posted 12-04-2006 4:49 PM NOT JULIUS has not yet responded

  
NOT JULIUS
Member (Idle past 2734 days)
Posts: 219
From: Rome
Joined: 11-29-2006


Message 212 of 260 (367726)
12-04-2006 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by iceage
12-04-2006 4:42 PM


Re: God Allowed Rape?
The primitive vision of god as a described in the OT, an alpha-warrior primate, did command rape. If you describe rape as "unconsented sex" there is no other conclusion. The fact that it was "codified" and allowed for a mourning period still does not change the issue - it was force "marriage" with no rights of the female partner.
Furthermore if the Canaanites were as wicked as you try to claim how young to suppose a virgin girl was in the situation described. I believe we have forced marriage probably prepubescent. Please explain the Love and Mercy here.

Even in this day and age, it is very hard to prove rape. How do you know that those who were "forced" to marry their husband did not really like them after all. Do you have statistics? How many of these victims were sent out 1%, 5% 50%? Even if there were indeed some who were sent out, the fact that their lives were spared showed that mercy was shown to them.

The command “Do not Murder” must contain fine print that says but spite the bastards, the women, the little ones and the unborn if they meet a certain threshold of wickedness. In this case Love your enemy with the pointy end of sword.

Do not murder does not preclude: "eliminate the wicked among you--foreigners and Israelites alike".

Also, study shows the Hebrews absorbed common phrases, literary idioms, myths and even concepts and practices of the Canaanites and surrounding pagan religions. So be careful in making the Canaanites too wicked.

Ironically, you asked for proof. Yet you feel free to to say: "study shows the Hebrews absorbed common phrases"? What's this double standard, or are we to bicker about details of proof?
Anyway, I'm not disputing your assertion. I could even go as far as they even absorbed and even exceeded the wickedness of these people. That's why God had to punish them severely. One rule--elimination of who is bad, regardless of who it was--was applied in this case, agree?

And furthermore if the Canaanites were so wicked why didn't god the warrior god just bring down a plague, famine or do some supernatural badass stuff and do these people himself? Why would your god require his people to the undertake these scriptural uplifting and purifying experiences of running a pregnant women thru with a sword or running down and hacking little boys but sparing any virgin girls that catch your fancy?

I'm not God, so I'll just make an educated guess. (1)Death by the sword is less painful than death by famine. (2) He is the Sovereign, so he can delegate capital punishment to his subjects.

You certainly have a smallish vision of God.

Is it worse than painting him as a cruel monster?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by iceage, posted 12-04-2006 4:42 PM iceage has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by iceage, posted 12-04-2006 6:27 PM NOT JULIUS has responded

    
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4174 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 213 of 260 (367729)
12-04-2006 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by NOT JULIUS
12-04-2006 5:47 PM


Re: God Allowed Rape?
pilate writes:

How do you know that those who were "forced" to marry their husband did not really like them after all.

How many people would willing marry their "new husbands" after their new husband just killed every love one they ever knew? It does not take much empathy to understand this.

pilate writes:

the fact that their lives were spared showed that mercy was shown to them.

Their lives were not spared out of some sort of mercy!

Their lives were spared because they were useful and were sexually attractive young females.

pilate writes:

Do not murder does not preclude: "eliminate the wicked among you--foreigners and Israelites alike".

And I guess this includes wicked toddlers, children and the unborn, but excludes attractive virgin female children. Nice foundation to build a set of ethics from.

pilate writes:

Im not God, so I'll just make an educated guess. (1)Death by the sword is less painful than death by famine. (2) He is the Sovereign, so he can delegate capital punishment to his subjects.

1. Ok why not just stop the beating of the small black wicked hearts?
2. Sure but then your god is hardly loving and merciful. You can't have it both ways.

iceage writes:


You certainly have a smallish vision of God.

pilate writes:


Is it worse than painting him as a cruel monster?

I am not painting God as a cruel monster. Surprisingly you are, by having to believe these ancient texts describe God and your failed attempts to provide apologetics. Blasphemy I say.

I have stated this point over and over in this thread. The events described are primitive and not out of the ordinary for the era. They are not the thoughts, commands or direction of God. It is obvious - stand back 30 ft and think about it.

Edited by iceage, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by NOT JULIUS, posted 12-04-2006 5:47 PM NOT JULIUS has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by NOT JULIUS, posted 12-04-2006 7:03 PM iceage has not yet responded

  
NOT JULIUS
Member (Idle past 2734 days)
Posts: 219
From: Rome
Joined: 11-29-2006


Message 214 of 260 (367733)
12-04-2006 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by iceage
12-04-2006 6:27 PM


Re: God Allowed Rape?
This is complete bullshit. Bullshit again. Their lives were not spared out of some sort of mercy!

You win handsdown! You showed your sharp and logical mind by using the word B***

But, let me just continue for a bit more. Even losers are given their last say, right?

Their lives were spared because they were useful and were sexually attractive young females. How many people would willing marry their "new husbands" after their new husband just killed every love one they ever knew? It does not take much empathy to understand this.

Time has a way of healing all wounds. Do you have the records that these "forced wives" did not learn to love their "murderous husbands" after say 2,10, 15 years after? I demand a concrete proof, just as you demand God from giving an accounting to you of every move He did.

Oh, "empathy" from people who questions One that gives them their daily bread. What a nice word! The next word to that is: EMPTY.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by DrJones*, posted 12-04-2006 7:15 PM NOT JULIUS has not yet responded

    
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1932
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 215 of 260 (367734)
12-04-2006 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by NOT JULIUS
12-04-2006 7:03 PM


Re: God Allowed Rape?
Do you have the records that these "forced wives" did not learn to love their "murderous husbands" after say 2,10, 15 years after?

Do you have records that the husbands held off on fucking their young virgin wives until they loved them?


Just a monkey in a long line of kings.
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist!
*not an actual doctor
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 200 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 216 of 260 (373923)
01-03-2007 6:25 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by DrJones*
12-04-2006 7:15 PM


Re: God Allowed Rape?
Potty mouths rule on Evc Forum.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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sidelined
Inactive Member


Message 217 of 260 (373927)
01-03-2007 6:46 AM
Reply to: Message 216 by jaywill
01-03-2007 6:25 AM


Re: God Allowed Rape?
jaywill

Did you really just say potty mouth? Are you so incapable of answering the question raised that you would hide behind such childish discourse? I mean, the intensity of the swearing has the purpose of injecting an understanding of the distaste the speaker is trying to convey concerning the subject, not to shock your with the language being used.
An adult willing to discuss this would have stepped aside from the barrage and made an honest effort to refute the real point of the question which goes to the heart of a persons moral character.

Is the sparing of virgin women while slaughtering all others an act of mercy of a benevolent God or the satisfying of a lust on the part of the successful army?

And don't you dare use the maddeningly trite non-answer that they came to love their captors as though that mitigates the barbarity of the crime itself please.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by jaywill, posted 01-03-2007 6:25 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by jaywill, posted 01-03-2007 12:12 PM sidelined has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 200 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 218 of 260 (373994)
01-03-2007 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by sidelined
01-03-2007 6:46 AM


Re: God Allowed Rape?
Sorry sideline. I try. I try. I really do.

Hey, have you heard of Glen Miller's Christian Think Tank? He has a bunch of very well bibliographically annotated and scholarly artcles arguing topics just like this - genocide and rape etc. in the Old Testament.

Re-creating those articles here is very redundant. But if you are seriously bothered by some of these questions about Levitical Laws I would encourage you to spend some time reading Glen Miller's voluminous answers to typical challenges like this.

No, re-hashing those articles for discussion here is not worth my labors and time. At least not on this subject.

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/

There's a bunch of tough questions and responses about fairness to women in the OT laws. I think they are scholarly and quite objective.

Then again I'm biased to the Bible.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


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Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by Jazzns, posted 01-03-2007 2:01 PM jaywill has responded
 Message 221 by Jazzns, posted 01-03-2007 4:16 PM jaywill has responded

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2171 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 219 of 260 (374027)
01-03-2007 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by jaywill
01-03-2007 12:12 PM


Re: God Allowed Rape?
Browsing that site you linked I cannot find a discussion about the spoils of war. There is some dicussion of slavery. Can you help us by at least pointing to where anything relevant to this discussion is contained at that site?


Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by jaywill, posted 01-03-2007 12:12 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by ringo, posted 01-03-2007 3:19 PM Jazzns has not yet responded
 Message 224 by jaywill, posted 01-03-2007 5:01 PM Jazzns has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17297
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 220 of 260 (374048)
01-03-2007 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by Jazzns
01-03-2007 2:01 PM


Re: God Allowed Rape?
The Numbers 31 incident seems to be covered on this page.


Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Jazzns, posted 01-03-2007 2:01 PM Jazzns has not yet responded

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2171 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 221 of 260 (374075)
01-03-2007 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by jaywill
01-03-2007 12:12 PM


Re: God Allowed Rape?
I don't think you are biased to the Bible, I think you are biased to Bible apologetics.

The treatment of the Numbers incident at that site is nothing but ad-hoc defensive crap.

They basically assert that the relevance of the virginity of the captive females had nothing to do with sexuality and they even go as far to say that the killing of the little boys was a humane act of euthanasia. Hardly puts the incident in a holy light.

As you seem quite flippant about sitting here and actually taking on this issue directly, I suppose that other than linking to apologetics we can assume you have no ACTUAL defense?


Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by jaywill, posted 01-03-2007 12:12 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by jaywill, posted 01-03-2007 4:38 PM Jazzns has responded
 Message 238 by jaywill, posted 01-04-2007 12:26 PM Jazzns has responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 200 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 222 of 260 (374077)
01-03-2007 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by Jazzns
01-03-2007 4:16 PM


Re: God Allowed Rape?
I don't think you are biased to the Bible, I think you are biased to Bible apologetics.

I'm biased to both.

Actually most of the apologetics I have read does fine without my needing to be biased.

As you seem quite flippant about sitting here and actually taking on this issue directly, I suppose that other than linking to apologetics we can assume you have no ACTUAL defense?

Well, let me as you a question. SHould we also consider God's latter and clearer words on the matter?

Here we are in the age of the New Testament. And in this age we have Jesus, allegedly the Son of God, God become a man teaching of this:

'You have heard that it was said, "You shall not commit adultery." But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman in order to lust after her has already commited adultery with her in his heart. So if your right eye stumbles you, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish than for your whole body to be cast into Gehenna.' (Matthew 5:27-29)

This is my Lord Jesus in the New Testament age teaching me of the seriousness of the sin of lack of self control and giving into unlawful sexual lust. Now since I believe that this is the same God as in the book of Numbers, having become incarnated as a man, this passage reveals His heart towards these matters.

I think it is better to come to Christ as the Lord and Savior, and then from His teaching allow the Holy Spirit to shed light on the Old Testament's difficult passages.

According to this penetrating teaching of Christ, it is not the action alone which indicates the sin. It is the motive in the heart even before any action has taken place which must be dealt with at any cost.

Now I don't think Christ expected us to chop off our hands and pluck out our eyes. But His expression shows that people have to deal with the motive of sexual sin with a sense of urgency and Godly fear. Since we are so full of lust it behooves us to come to Christ, linger in His Spirit, and allow His grace to impower us to die to the old nature and let the new nature develop within us from His Holy Spirit.

Though there are a number of difficult passages in the history of Israel in the Old Testament, I am confident that God is neither unrighteous or evil. And His heart on the matter of sexual sins is clearly expressed in Christ's teaching that even the motive of the heart must be kept under the control of His Lordship.

Now do I think that you surpass God in ethics and morality? The answer is no. I do not believe that you can rise above God either in the Old Testament or the New Testament so as to condemn the Divine that He has not risen up to your standard of goodness.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Jazzns, posted 01-03-2007 4:16 PM Jazzns has responded

Replies to this message:
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 200 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 223 of 260 (374080)
01-03-2007 4:47 PM


Now Jazzns,

You checked with me. Now let me check with you.

What passage or commandment would you point to that amounts to an instruction of God: "Thou shalt rape ....".

What passage unambiguously shows that God commanded the Jews to rape a woman or to rape women?

I need in this case chapter and verse.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by iceage, posted 01-03-2007 6:16 PM jaywill has responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 200 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 224 of 260 (374084)
01-03-2007 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by Jazzns
01-03-2007 2:01 PM


Re: God Allowed Rape?
Browsing that site you linked I cannot find a discussion about the spoils of war. There is some dicussion of slavery. Can you help us by at least pointing to where anything relevant to this discussion is contained at that site?

What I did was go to the search engine and scan on the word "rape".

I found an article in answer to a question about whether the laws concerning evidence of rape and related issues were fair to the ancient woman.

Spend some time there and use the search engine. If you respond in one night I don't think you spent adaquate time there.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Jazzns, posted 01-03-2007 2:01 PM Jazzns has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by Jazzns, posted 01-03-2007 5:29 PM jaywill has responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 200 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 225 of 260 (374086)
01-03-2007 5:10 PM


Glen Miller's various answers and discussions on rape in the Bible:

Type in "Rape" under Keyword Search Section at

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


  
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