Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 85 (8937 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 09-21-2019 7:22 AM
25 online now:
PaulK, RAZD (2 members, 23 visitors)
Chatting now:  , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,
Newest Member: ssope
Post Volume:
Total: 861,868 Year: 16,904/19,786 Month: 1,029/2,598 Week: 275/251 Day: 3/43 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev1
...
45
6
78
...
13Next
Author Topic:   What is a soul?
NOT JULIUS
Member (Idle past 2734 days)
Posts: 219
From: Rome
Joined: 11-29-2006


Message 76 of 191 (369316)
12-12-2006 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by dogrelata
11-30-2006 2:15 PM


What is a soul
Hi Dogrelata,
You wrote:
As a starting point I’m curious about whether the soul should be considered as inextricably linked to material existence, i.e. does a person’s soul come into existence only with their corporeal being? If so, does it occur at the moment of conception, or some time later?

Or is the soul something that already exists, waiting to be united with a human body when it eventually arrives on this earth? Or am I completely mistaken in the notion that souls are individual essences, each unique to a single person? Is there any sense in which the soul might be considered a ‘global’ essence, with human existence acting as a portal through which to access it?

I hope you won't mind if an ancient governor from Judea join this discussion about what a soul is. :=) :=) The following info are based on my research.

World Book Encyclopedia & Britannica. These reference materials say that the idea of an immortal soul was a Greek idea (from Plato) w/c was engrafted into Christendom's doctrine. The Lion Concise Encyclopedia also confirms this and further says that Biblical soul has different meaning.

If we read the King James Bible the following info will be given us:

1. Genesis chap 1: God said 'let there be creeping SOULS, swimming souls...'
2. Gen chap 2. God formed man out of dust and breathed life giving breathed into him and man became a living SOUL (note that God did not give him a Soul, but that man Became a soul )
3.Jeremiah says that a SOUL has blood.
4. Ezekiel says that a SOUL can die ( Ezek 18:4)
5. A dead SOUL knows nothing. ( Eccl 9:5; Isaiah 30:8)
6. There were 267 (237?) SOULS aboard the ship containing Paul according to Acts.

All these Biblical verses point out that a soul is a physical man--we ourselves. Or, even the physical animals.

Sometimes though the word soul, as used in the Bible, could refer to the life of a person.

Jesus said that this life (SOUL) could be destroyed (not tortured) in hell. He said 'do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot DESTROY the soul (note he did not say TORTURE). But, be in fear of him who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna. This place--Gehenna--was the dumping ground of waste in ancient Jerusalem. It was a fitting symbol of eternal DESTRUCTION because in that place sulfur was added to the fire to DESTROY garbage.

In some other Biblical accounts, the word soul is used to refer to life that can be restored. Two examples are the miracles done by Elijah, and the apostle Paul.

This is my humble contribution to your beautiful topic. Now, whichever you believe--Plato's idea or the Bible--is up to you and the readers.
PJ


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by dogrelata, posted 11-30-2006 2:15 PM dogrelata has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by dogrelata, posted 12-13-2006 1:51 PM NOT JULIUS has not yet responded
 Message 93 by dogrelata, posted 12-14-2006 1:53 PM NOT JULIUS has not yet responded

    
melatonin
Member (Idle past 4468 days)
Posts: 126
From: Cymru
Joined: 02-13-2006


Message 77 of 191 (369322)
12-12-2006 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Hyroglyphx
12-02-2006 1:31 PM


Re: The soul undaunted
I have often wondered if thoughts don't actually come from the mind, per say, but rather if the mind is only the medium through which they are expressed. For instance, when we take an EKG of the brain and flash images of loved ones on a screen, we can see all sorts of brain activity. But maybe that is the brain discerning what is sees and as a result, you see all of these components of the brain active. Afterall, I think we might agree that love isn't actually just firing synapses or the release of dopamine. Indeed, there is something that yearns to be more laudable than mere chemical reactions.

It is more than that. Neuropsychology shows us how damage to certain areas of the brain results in very exotic conditions. If thoughts or love between people is separate from the brain then how do individuals who suffer Capgras syndrome, a condition that can be due to psychiatric illness or neurological lesion, result in an individual claiming their loved one is an imposter?

Mrs. D, a 74-year old married housewife, recently discharged from a local hospital after her first psychiatric admission, presented to our facility for a second opinion. At the time of her admission earlier in the year, she had received the diagnosis of atypical psychosis because of her belief that her husband had been replaced by another unrelated man. She refused to sleep with the imposter, locked her bedroom and door at night, asked her son for a gun, and finally fought with the police when attempts were made to hospitalize her. At times she believed her husband was her long deceased father. She easily recognized other family members and would misidentify her husband only.

There is strong neuropsychological evidence that the Capgras delusion is, at least in part, related to a loss of emotional response to familiar faces. This is in the context of generally good (although not always perfectly intact) face perception abilities. This seems to be the reverse of prosopagnosia. In prosopagnosia, conscious face recognition abilities are severely impaired, and in some cases sufferers still show a covert emotional response to familiar faces, detectable by measuring (for example) skin conductance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capgras_syndrome

Individuals who suffer prosopagnosia (inability to recognise faces) still have the emotional response associated with their loved ones, but they cannot explicitly recognise from face alone (they tend to use hair and clothes, perfume etc). This suggest a dissociation between explicit recognition and the association of faces with their emotional 'label'.

Whereas in Capgras syndrome we have a disorder where an individual can recognise faces but seems to have lost the emotional response to certain familar and loved individuals. So because they lack the emotional response associated with a loved one, they rationalise that they are an imposter. They should feel positive towards a loved one, they do not.

Memories, emotions, empathy, feelings etc are derived from the brain. A individual who suffers damage to the orbitomedial frontal lobe may change personality altogether but show no change in intelligence, showing what has been called 'acquired sociopathy', an individual with a particular tumour may suddenly start abusing children. We even know that fear is expressed before conscious recognition of fearful stimuli via subcortical processes (the body is primed to respond to a threat before you know of a threat).

"Minds are what brains do"

Anyone interested in these very exotic conditions and the neuropsychological view of the mind and brain should read Ramachandran's "Phantoms in the brain" and Damasio's "Descartes Error".

Edited by melatonin, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-02-2006 1:31 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 4110 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 78 of 191 (369377)
12-12-2006 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by dogrelata
12-12-2006 2:01 PM


Re: The soul undaunted
I am keen to defend the measurement issue though. To me, life forms are receivers, i.e. they have the ability to detect various aspects of reality, whatever ‘reality’ may be. Whilst I accept that there are many things that science cannot measure at the moment, I simply don’t accept the assumption that science can never measure these things. It seems like we have some role reversal here, with you prepared to place limits on what science can contribute to our understanding, and me preaching open-mindedness in the matter (no pun intended)

Ah, yes, the expression of ones faith. :) I do not see life forms simply as recievers. We also transmit and create new information and new understanding of old information.

At the moment, science is unable to ‘measure’ a dream, at least not to the point that in can accurately determine what is being dreamt. The best it can presently do is to detect brain activity during the dream phase of sleep. But is this always to be the case? I don’t know, but I wouldn’t be prepared to risk my life savings on the possibility that it will. Science has a pretty good track record of ‘understanding the incomprehensible’.

A dream is not incomprehensible. Niether is any thought expressed through descriptive language either spoken or writen. We do the understanding in a way the aproach of science can not. The aproach of science is just one aspect of us.

I used the word “retreat” as an alternative to regress, as I tend to see life as a journey, and “retreat” seems a slightly better fit.

Yes, I agree, life is a journey.

The idea itself is a simple one. Faced with the realisation that one is a miniscule part of the whole, the “bigger picture”, it can seem attractive to recreate the environment of a time when one felt oneself to be a much larger part of the whole, a time when one, by that definition, was much more significant, a time when one was sheltered from the harsher realities of life by parental figureheads, and a time also when the notion of mortality was much less acute.

You may be correct. This may be a motivation for some. I do not know.

Edited by 2ice_baked_taters, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by dogrelata, posted 12-12-2006 2:01 PM dogrelata has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by dogrelata, posted 12-13-2006 2:15 PM 2ice_baked_taters has not yet responded

  
AnswersInGenitals
Member
Posts: 510
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 79 of 191 (369384)
12-12-2006 7:05 PM


What happens to the soul of an aborted fetus?
Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Fosdick, posted 12-12-2006 7:29 PM AnswersInGenitals has not yet responded
 Message 83 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 12-12-2006 9:48 PM AnswersInGenitals has not yet responded
 Message 86 by ringo, posted 12-13-2006 2:16 PM AnswersInGenitals has not yet responded

  
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3759 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 80 of 191 (369389)
12-12-2006 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by AnswersInGenitals
12-12-2006 7:05 PM


The soul gene
AnswersInGenitals wrote:

What happens to the soul of an aborted fetus?

Good question. Of course it requires belief in souls to be answered properly. While I don't believe in souls, I make the transcontextual observation that the genes of an aborted fetus do not die. They live on in the extant population of the fetus's species. Alleles, too, live on, but not in precise allelic combinations (unless there happens to be an identical twin}. Perhaps, then, there is a soul gene. If so, it might qualify for immortality, because the genes are out to live forever. To wit; there were genes in your hypothetically aborted fetus that are >500 million years old.

—Hoot Mon


The most incomprehensible thing about nature is that it is comprehensible. —A. Einstein
This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 12-12-2006 7:05 PM AnswersInGenitals has not yet responded

    
DominionSeraph
Member (Idle past 3014 days)
Posts: 365
From: on High
Joined: 01-26-2005


Message 81 of 191 (369393)
12-12-2006 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by 2ice_baked_taters
12-11-2006 12:31 PM


2ice_baked_taters writes:

It is you who have made the some sort of distinction between losing a limb and the capacity to recall a memory.

Now you're mixing verbs and nouns. Do you not know how to construct an analogy?

Edited by DominionSeraph, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 12-11-2006 12:31 PM 2ice_baked_taters has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 12-12-2006 9:37 PM DominionSeraph has responded

  
2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 4110 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 82 of 191 (369409)
12-12-2006 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by DominionSeraph
12-12-2006 8:02 PM


Now you're mixing verbs and nouns.

I recognise my description of the loss of 2 capacities by physical dammage.

Do you not know how to construct an analogy?

Why, Yes I do.

To my understanding learning is something we do with intent. We strive to understand. We do not intend to unlearn. Loss of information or access to it by physical dammage is the nature of alzhiemers. The person still fights to comunicate. They strive to be heard. Their memories return for periods. Alzhiemers patients understand the loss of ability they are enduring. Explain to me the way in which you see the two to be anologous because to me they are not even close.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by DominionSeraph, posted 12-12-2006 8:02 PM DominionSeraph has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by DominionSeraph, posted 12-13-2006 3:19 PM 2ice_baked_taters has responded

  
2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 4110 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 83 of 191 (369411)
12-12-2006 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by AnswersInGenitals
12-12-2006 7:05 PM


What happens to the soul of an aborted fetus?

Good question. Haven't got a clue. I have empathetic hopes for the best, whatever that may be. At some point I may find out.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 12-12-2006 7:05 PM AnswersInGenitals has not yet responded

  
dogrelata
Member (Idle past 3571 days)
Posts: 201
From: Scotland
Joined: 08-04-2006


Message 84 of 191 (369540)
12-13-2006 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by NOT JULIUS
12-12-2006 2:37 PM


Re: What is a soul
Cheers pilate.

Thanks for the contribution. It’s nice to hear from someone who was actually 'in the neighbourhood’ at the time the big deal was going down.:)

pilate_judas writes:

This is my humble contribution to your beautiful topic. Now, whichever you believe--Plato's idea or the Bible--is up to you and the readers.

I’m not sure how beautiful the topic is, but I hope everyone is having some fun.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by NOT JULIUS, posted 12-12-2006 2:37 PM NOT JULIUS has not yet responded

  
dogrelata
Member (Idle past 3571 days)
Posts: 201
From: Scotland
Joined: 08-04-2006


Message 85 of 191 (369546)
12-13-2006 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by 2ice_baked_taters
12-12-2006 6:36 PM


Re: The soul undaunted
2ice baked taters writes:

Ah, yes, the expression of ones faith. :)

To be able to function effectively as beings, we need to have faith in our own perception of reality – and I suspect that’s no less true for a cow or a squirrel than it is for a human being. If I had no faith in my perception that the staircase was ‘real’, I would forever be trapped on the upper landing:)

2ice baked taters writes:

I do not see life forms simply as recievers. We also transmit and create new information and new understanding of old information.

Obviously life forms are more than receivers, in the same way as humans are more than simply bipeds, so I would never read the statement, “humans are bipeds” to mean that was their only attribute:)

The point I was making was; is there anything special about life that allows it to detect forms of reality that cannot be measured by science? You appear to suggest that there may be whilst I prefer to wait and see what transpires.

2ice baked taters writes:

A dream is not incomprehensible.

Agreed. But that’s not what I said. I said at the moment science can do no more than detect the brain activity that points to a dream occurring. At the moment science has no way of determining what is being dreamt, so the dream is incomprehensible in the sense that monitoring brain activity offers science no ‘knowledge’ of the dream. The question would be, can science ever ‘progress’ enough to accurately tell what a person dreamed by analyzing their brain activity, etc. I put the word ‘progess’ in quotes as it’s questionable whether the ability to read the minds of others could ever be considered to be progress.

2ice baked taters writes:

Niether is any thought expressed through descriptive language either spoken or writen. We do the understanding in a way the aproach of science can not. The aproach of science is just one aspect of us.

I’m not sure I follow you here. I saw something recently where a neuroscientist felt that most of the mysteries of the brain would be solved within the next twenty years. I don’t have any way of knowing whether he’s right, but I assume you would take issue with him if he is implying that the mysteries of the mind and the ‘self’ will similarly be solved.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 12-12-2006 6:36 PM 2ice_baked_taters has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17297
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 86 of 191 (369548)
12-13-2006 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by AnswersInGenitals
12-12-2006 7:05 PM


AnswersInGenitals writes:

What happens to the soul of an aborted fetus?

It doesn't have one.


Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 12-12-2006 7:05 PM AnswersInGenitals has not yet responded

  
DominionSeraph
Member (Idle past 3014 days)
Posts: 365
From: on High
Joined: 01-26-2005


Message 87 of 191 (369557)
12-13-2006 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by 2ice_baked_taters
12-12-2006 9:37 PM


2ice_baked_taters writes:

I recognise my description of the loss of 2 capacities by physical dammage.

You equated 'losing' with 'capacity'. "Losing is like capacity" is nonsensical.

2ice_baked_taters writes:

Why, Yes I do.

Then use that knowledge.

2ice_baked_taters writes:

To my understanding learning is something we do with intent.

Only once you learn what learning is can you intend to learn. So there is a base that is done without volition.

2ice_baked_taters writes:

We do not intend to unlearn.

You can't unlearn. What you can do is forget what you've learned.

2ice_baked_taters writes:

Alzhiemers patients understand the loss of ability they are enduring.

Until they forget.

2ice_baked_taters writes:

Explain to me the way in which you see the two to be anologous because to me they are not even close.

How is storing data like storing no data? They're both dealing with storage.
You basically said that storing processed data can fundamentally change a person. I want to know what happens when you clean it out.

Edited by DominionSeraph, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 12-12-2006 9:37 PM 2ice_baked_taters has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 12-13-2006 5:01 PM DominionSeraph has responded

  
2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 4110 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 88 of 191 (369573)
12-13-2006 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by DominionSeraph
12-13-2006 3:19 PM


You can't unlearn. What you can do is forget what you've learned.

How are you defining learning and forgetting?

You equated 'losing' with 'capacity'. "Losing is like capacity" is nonsensical.

If you have 2 legs you have the capacity to run. If you lose them or are paralized you have lost your capacity/ability to run.
If you are a pilot with the capacity to pilot planes and you go blind you will have lost your capacity to fly.

There is nothing nonsensical about it. Capacity and ability are interchangable.

How is storing data like storing no data? They're both dealing with storage.
You basically said that storing processed data can fundamentally change a person.

No, you interpret that. To learn something is to understand it to some capacity. I see a clear distinction between memorization and interpretaion/understanding.

Only once you learn what learning is can you intend to learn. So there is a base that is done without volition.

So if one needs to learn what learning is before one can intend to do so how can one learn initially? Simple data storage is meaningless. But that is the way you seem to be interpreting "learning"
Learning is also the understanding and interpretation of what we encounter.

I want to know what happens when you clean it out.

Yeah, so do I. Or if it is actually gone but inaccessable. As evident when alzhiemers patients have good days and bad. Or when a coma patient awakens. Where do our memories go when we sleep? We do not recall sleeping. What's up with that?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by DominionSeraph, posted 12-13-2006 3:19 PM DominionSeraph has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by melatonin, posted 12-13-2006 6:03 PM 2ice_baked_taters has responded
 Message 102 by DominionSeraph, posted 12-15-2006 9:43 PM 2ice_baked_taters has responded

  
melatonin
Member (Idle past 4468 days)
Posts: 126
From: Cymru
Joined: 02-13-2006


Message 89 of 191 (369592)
12-13-2006 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by 2ice_baked_taters
12-13-2006 5:01 PM


Sorry to butt in - learning can occur with and without awareness. We have intentional and incidental learning.

Advertising companies depend on learning without intention :)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 12-13-2006 5:01 PM 2ice_baked_taters has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 12-13-2006 11:21 PM melatonin has responded

  
2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 4110 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 90 of 191 (369668)
12-13-2006 11:21 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by melatonin
12-13-2006 6:03 PM


Sorry to butt in - learning can occur with and without awareness. We have intentional and incidental learning.

Advertising companies depend on learning without intention

Yes. The wonderful messages that show up on packaging. Is that with ultaviolet or infrared light? I forgret.

But this does not fit my definition of learning. It falls more in line with information storage.It does illustrate that we opperate on more than one level at a time. One wonders with the barage of subliminal messages if we become desensitized to it?

Edited by 2ice_baked_taters, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by melatonin, posted 12-13-2006 6:03 PM melatonin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by melatonin, posted 12-14-2006 7:55 AM 2ice_baked_taters has not yet responded

  
Prev1
...
45
6
78
...
13Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019