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Author Topic:   What is a soul?
dogrelata
Member (Idle past 3570 days)
Posts: 201
From: Scotland
Joined: 08-04-2006


Message 91 of 191 (369691)
12-14-2006 2:51 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by 2ice_baked_taters
12-11-2006 2:32 AM


Re: The soul undaunted
dogrelata writes:

However, if you simply want to introduce the idea of ‘non-physical’ things that are dependant on nature for their existence, so that you can ‘bridge the gap’ to ‘non-physical’ things independent of nature, you need to find a alternative method of doing so.

2ice baked taters writes:

My point here was to illustrate that our notion of "physical" Is nowhere near as clear as what reality seems to be showing us. The idea of "natural" is simply a notion. We do not have a clue as to the reality of what natural is. We have perceptions. We do the best we can as we fumble along trying to understand. In my mind there is no gap to bridge.

I’m increasingly getting a sense off, “I think, therefore it is”. By that I mean you appear to be suggesting that not only is a thought a non-physical reality, but the ideas contained within the thought become non-physical realities. In other words, if you can imagine something, anything even, the very act of doing so imparts a degree of reality (that is necessarily beyond the realms of scientific measurement).

Or do I completely misunderstand where you are coming from?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 12-11-2006 2:32 AM 2ice_baked_taters has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 12-29-2006 5:19 AM dogrelata has responded

  
melatonin
Member (Idle past 4467 days)
Posts: 126
From: Cymru
Joined: 02-13-2006


Message 92 of 191 (369702)
12-14-2006 7:55 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by 2ice_baked_taters
12-13-2006 11:21 PM


Well I guess your definition of learning is actually intentional learning, which is not the sole source of learning.

I don't know about the US but I know subliminal messages are not used here. Generally the use of visual and textual metaphors, distinctive adverts and music are all aimed at invoking a deeper level of information processing. The deeper the level, the greater the retention. I'm quite sure there are few adverts where we intend to remember the product (although not impossible).

Music is also aimed at creating emotion, emotional processing tends to invoke greater retention than non-emotional.

But I guess your not so convinced by this type of learning. How about methods such as the Iowa Gambling Task? This task uses a complex contingency of rewards and punishment, too difficult to track. Findings generally show that players start learning to perform successfully before they actually know explicitly how to. Using measures of emotional activity, such as Skin conductance, we can actually show visceral responses indicating a warning before bad choices developing quite early in the game, those without these covert responses tend to perform poorly.

I've seen many people complete the task very successfully and still have no idea what the general rules are after 100 card selections, although most have an idea by 40 cards.

There is a whole world of the unconscious that drives and motivates behaviour, neuroscience is showing freud to be right about that. (Wilson's book 'stranger to ourselves' is a good read in this regard).

Anyway, guess this isn't so relevant to the topic...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 12-13-2006 11:21 PM 2ice_baked_taters has not yet responded

  
dogrelata
Member (Idle past 3570 days)
Posts: 201
From: Scotland
Joined: 08-04-2006


Message 93 of 191 (369744)
12-14-2006 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by NOT JULIUS
12-12-2006 2:37 PM


Re: What is a soul
pilate_judas writes:

If we read the King James Bible the following info will be given us:
1. Genesis chap 1: God said 'let there be creeping SOULS, swimming souls...'
2. Gen chap 2. God formed man out of dust and breathed life giving breathed into him and man became a living SOUL (note that God did not give him a Soul, but that man Became a soul )
3.Jeremiah says that a SOUL has blood.
4. Ezekiel says that a SOUL can die ( Ezek 18:4)
5. A dead SOUL knows nothing. ( Eccl 9:5; Isaiah 30:8)
6. There were 267 (237?) SOULS aboard the ship containing Paul according to Acts.
All these Biblical verses point out that a soul is a physical man--we ourselves. Or, even the physical animals.


I started this thread with my devil’s advocate hat on, and I think it’s time to dust it down again to see if it still fits. So for the sake of argument, let’s accept the concept of god and an afterlife, etc.

I guess my first question would be if animals are souls, do these souls persist after their physical entity ceases to be? In other words, do they have the chance of accepting salvation?

Or do animals automatically receive salvation, as they have never committed original sin?

Does the Bible have anything to say on these issues, and if not, how are we to determine the answers?

Well it’s off with the devil’s advocate’s hat and back to the kennel for me now:)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by NOT JULIUS, posted 12-12-2006 2:37 PM NOT JULIUS has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by jar, posted 12-14-2006 2:18 PM dogrelata has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31274
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 94 of 191 (369747)
12-14-2006 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by dogrelata
12-14-2006 1:53 PM


Re: What is a soul
You have to remember that lots of folk will make claims that simply do not stand up to examination. For example looking at your quotes:

If we read the King James Bible the following info will be given us:
1. Genesis chap 1: God said 'let there be creeping SOULS, swimming souls...'

That simply is not true. In fact, the word soul does not even appear anywhere in Genesis 1.

Nobody knows what a soul is, or whether anyone or anything possesses a soul. Some of us might believe there is a soul, and that it is something that persists beyond life, but honestly, no one really has a clue.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by dogrelata, posted 12-14-2006 1:53 PM dogrelata has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by dogrelata, posted 12-15-2006 2:48 AM jar has responded

  
Woodsy
Member (Idle past 1632 days)
Posts: 301
From: Burlington, Canada
Joined: 08-30-2006


Message 95 of 191 (369768)
12-14-2006 3:48 PM


A change of pace
For variety, how about this view?

The soul concept is an ancient error, like asking where the fire goes when the fuel runs out, and is still around because it is perpetuated by organized religion.

Can we find any evidence pro or con for this version?


Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by 1.61803, posted 12-14-2006 5:22 PM Woodsy has responded

  
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2903
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 96 of 191 (369777)
12-14-2006 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Woodsy
12-14-2006 3:48 PM


Re: A change of pace
quote:
The soul concept is an ancient error, like asking where fire goes when the fuel runs out, and is still around because it is perpetuated by organized religion.
Actually this is a good analogy. As the energy stored in organic material is oxidized heat and light are released. What happens to the mind/soul when cellular respiration ceases? Conciousness. Is it based on physics and physiology or is it a emergent property of matter and energy. Is energy becoming sentient in the form of humans a inevitable cascade that occurs because the universe exists or because it wants to? I do not know the answer. No one does. Yet.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Woodsy, posted 12-14-2006 3:48 PM Woodsy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Woodsy, posted 12-14-2006 5:52 PM 1.61803 has responded

  
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2903
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 97 of 191 (369778)
12-14-2006 5:35 PM


A Prayer by Sara Teasdale
Until I lose my soul and lie
Blind to the beauty of the earth,
Deaf though shouting wind goes by,Dumb in a storm of mirth;

Until my heart is quenched at length
And I have left the land of men,
Oh, let me love with all my strength,
Careless if I am loved again.
:)


  
Woodsy
Member (Idle past 1632 days)
Posts: 301
From: Burlington, Canada
Joined: 08-30-2006


Message 98 of 191 (369782)
12-14-2006 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by 1.61803
12-14-2006 5:22 PM


Re: A change of pace
Conciousness. Is it based on physics and physiology or is it a emergent property of matter and energy.

How are the two sides of your "or" different?

Is energy becoming sentient

What could this possibly mean? "Energy" has nothing to be sentient with, it is not a substance!

(Thanks for the nice poem.)

Edited by Woodsy, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by 1.61803, posted 12-14-2006 5:22 PM 1.61803 has responded

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1.61803
Member
Posts: 2903
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 99 of 191 (369784)
12-14-2006 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Woodsy
12-14-2006 5:52 PM


Re: A change of pace
How do you know? Humans have not even figured out what energy is yet.
This message is a reply to:
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dogrelata
Member (Idle past 3570 days)
Posts: 201
From: Scotland
Joined: 08-04-2006


Message 100 of 191 (369862)
12-15-2006 2:48 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by jar
12-14-2006 2:18 PM


Re: What is a soul
jar writes:

You have to remember that lots of folk will make claims that simply do not stand up to examination. For example looking at your quotes:

That simply is not true. In fact, the word soul does not even appear anywhere in Genesis 1.

Strictly speaking, this is not my quote, I was simply responding to another for the purposes of debate.

jar writes:

Nobody knows what a soul is, or whether anyone or anything possesses a soul. Some of us might believe there is a soul, and that it is something that persists beyond life, but honestly, no one really has a clue.

Absolutely. One of my areas of interest is how we come to formulate our belief structures in areas where our understanding is very limited. I don’t know if you’ve read the OP, but one of the questions I asked there was, “What is it that draws people to their beliefs in this area?”

Edited by dogrelata, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by jar, posted 12-14-2006 2:18 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by jar, posted 12-15-2006 10:18 AM dogrelata has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31274
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 101 of 191 (369883)
12-15-2006 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by dogrelata
12-15-2006 2:48 AM


Re: What is a soul
I don’t know if you’ve read the OP, but one of the questions I asked there was, “What is it that draws people to their beliefs in this area?”

Of course I read the OP and the responses.

I don't think there is much mysterious about what draws folk towards belief in a soul, it is just comfort. We hope that death is not final either for us, or those we love.

Also I fully realized that was not your quote, but simply wanted to point out that quite often folk make what look like positive assertions, like Genesis 1 mentions kinds of souls, which are simply not true.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by dogrelata, posted 12-15-2006 2:48 AM dogrelata has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by dogrelata, posted 12-16-2006 3:52 AM jar has responded

  
DominionSeraph
Member (Idle past 3012 days)
Posts: 365
From: on High
Joined: 01-26-2005


Message 102 of 191 (370058)
12-15-2006 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by 2ice_baked_taters
12-13-2006 5:01 PM


2ice_baked_taters writes:

How are you defining learning and forgetting?

Learning includes processing. Don't need to process anything to forget.

2ice_baked_taters writes:

If you are a pilot with the capacity to pilot planes and you go blind you will have lost your capacity to fly.

A blind person can fly just fine -- it's the ground-air interface that's problematic.

2ice_baked_taters writes:

There is nothing nonsensical about it. Capacity and ability are interchangable.

Losing and capacity are not, and that's what you equated.
You obviously don't even know how to read an analogy.

2ice_baked_taters writes:

To learn something is to understand it to some capacity.

That's why I said 'processed'.

2ice_baked_taters writes:

So if one needs to learn what learning is before one can intend to do so how can one learn initially?

Without intent.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 12-13-2006 5:01 PM 2ice_baked_taters has responded

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 Message 122 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 12-29-2006 5:05 AM DominionSeraph has not yet responded

  
dogrelata
Member (Idle past 3570 days)
Posts: 201
From: Scotland
Joined: 08-04-2006


Message 103 of 191 (370156)
12-16-2006 3:52 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by jar
12-15-2006 10:18 AM


Re: What is a soul
jar writes:

I don't think there is much mysterious about what draws folk towards belief in a soul, it is just comfort. We hope that death is not final either for us, or those we love.

Given your hope, what is it of you that you’d like to endure beyond your physical demise?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by jar, posted 12-15-2006 10:18 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by jar, posted 12-16-2006 11:10 AM dogrelata has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31274
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 104 of 191 (370185)
12-16-2006 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by dogrelata
12-16-2006 3:52 AM


Re: What is a soul
Consciousness, curiosity, love, joy, sorrow, questioning, awe, wonder.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by dogrelata, posted 12-16-2006 3:52 AM dogrelata has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by dogrelata, posted 12-17-2006 10:35 AM jar has responded

  
dogrelata
Member (Idle past 3570 days)
Posts: 201
From: Scotland
Joined: 08-04-2006


Message 105 of 191 (370366)
12-17-2006 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by jar
12-16-2006 11:10 AM


Re: What is a soul
jar writes:

Consciousness, curiosity, love, joy, sorrow, questioning, awe, wonder.

I realise this is entirely hypothetical, but if your hopes were to be realised, what do you think it might retrospectively tell you about the nature of reality, and specifically some of the ideas regarding the soul that have been expressed within this thread?

Edited by dogrelata, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by jar, posted 12-16-2006 11:10 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by jar, posted 12-17-2006 11:01 AM dogrelata has responded

  
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