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Author Topic:   The Bible was NOT man made, it was Godly made
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3754
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 1 of 320 (395312)
04-15-2007 11:46 PM


I quote the topic title from a message of Juraikken's at the "Exodus Part Two: Population of the Exodus Group" topic. There has been an ongoing discussion there (and elsewhere?) that has little (IMO) directly to do with the topic.

Jar has taken part in the above cited discussion, and it's largely an exploration of Jar's "The map vs. the territory" analogy.

So, the repeat the topic title, Juraikken asserts that "The Bible was NOT man made, it was Godly made."

Might I suggest, that man has had a hand in the manufacturing of the physical book? Also, down through time, that man has had a hand in translating and editing the content of the Bible (the variety of your choice, as Jar points out, there are many variations on what is "The Bible"?

Now I ask, being that man is the screw-up prone creature he is, how successful has God been at maintaining Biblical quality control down through the ages? Perfect quality control? Near perfect? The general story is correct? The book still has some valid use? It's worthless?

I say, real quality control, now there God would have pulled off his greatest miracle.

Maybe I can get fast admin action, in getting this topic into the "The Bible: Accuracy and Inerrancy" forum. :)

Moose

Added by edit: I have now discovered the older Determining a book's truth topic. Perhaps my new topic is redundant to that topic.

Edited by Minnemooseus, : See above.


Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.

"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith

"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose


Replies to this message:
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 Message 96 by NOT JULIUS, posted 04-27-2007 12:15 PM Minnemooseus has not yet responded
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Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3894
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 2 of 320 (395314)
04-15-2007 11:48 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
  
Juraikken
Member (Idle past 4448 days)
Posts: 82
From: Winnetka, CA
Joined: 11-13-2006


Message 3 of 320 (395318)
04-16-2007 12:01 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Minnemooseus
04-15-2007 11:46 PM


well heres the deal, teh topic on creation and religious things were very very very important and looked great upon back in those days, so until they had complete translations (KJV) i would say that it hasnt changed at all. look at it this way, ive come across many people who have thrown me a lot of contradictions and so far ive been able to re-asses all of them to show little errors in their ideas.

i'm not tlaking about something so miniscule as

"God called forth Adam from the ground"(original for example)
"God called Adam from the gravel"(translated)

that doesnt change anything. Translation only gets in the way if they change the meaning of the sentence. Now i pick the best one that has been translated as close as possible KJV. so far as i read it, i havent found any inaccuracies. I would enjoy being able to talk about it, but this isnt a thread about that.

The quality i could say has been kept in tact, because the hebrew text can go along with the english right? im not so good with that part of biblical history if someoen may show me if thats true or not.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Nuggin, posted 04-16-2007 1:54 AM Juraikken has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31281
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 4 of 320 (395320)
04-16-2007 12:06 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Minnemooseus
04-15-2007 11:46 PM


Is there such a thing as "The Bible?"
One of the first evidences that anything called a Bible is just the product of man is that there is no such thing as "The Bible".

There are actually a few "Bibles", the books determined by various Canons. The smallest Canon has only 5 books, the largest Canon has over 80 books.

To claim that "The Bible" was Godly Made, you need to explain why there is not one Bible, but several. You also need to justify why whichever one of the many Canons YOU happen to choose is the "Godly made" one as opposed to the others.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Juraikken
Member (Idle past 4448 days)
Posts: 82
From: Winnetka, CA
Joined: 11-13-2006


Message 5 of 320 (395322)
04-16-2007 12:11 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by jar
04-16-2007 12:06 AM


Re: Is there such a thing as "The Bible?"
ok what IS the smallest Canon?

and ive also read SOME of the books that are not part of the regular bible today, it goes against what Jesus teaches. its like this all 4 gospels said the same thing, if a 5th came along and said completely different it gets tossed aside, is that wrong? science does that everyday doesnt it?


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-16-2007 12:25 AM Juraikken has responded
 Message 7 by Taz, posted 04-16-2007 12:40 AM Juraikken has responded
 Message 11 by jar, posted 04-16-2007 12:45 AM Juraikken has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16104
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 6 of 320 (395326)
04-16-2007 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Juraikken
04-16-2007 12:11 AM


Re: Is there such a thing as "The Bible?"
and ive also read SOME of the books that are not part of the regular bible today, it goes against what Jesus teaches. its like this all 4 gospels said the same thing, if a 5th came along and said completely different it gets tossed aside, is that wrong? science does that everyday doesnt it?

A scientist would want to know which, if either, of the two accounts was true before deciding which one to "toss aside".


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Juraikken, posted 04-16-2007 12:11 AM Juraikken has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Juraikken, posted 04-16-2007 12:40 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Taz
Member (Idle past 1551 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 7 of 320 (395328)
04-16-2007 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Juraikken
04-16-2007 12:11 AM


Re: Is there such a thing as "The Bible?"
Juraikken writes:

science does that everyday doesnt it?


Notice that this is the bible: accuracy and inerrancy section of the board. Please refrain from using this opportunity to make cheap and ignorant smears at science.

We now return to our regular broadcast.


Disclaimer:

Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.

He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Juraikken, posted 04-16-2007 12:11 AM Juraikken has responded

Replies to this message:
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Juraikken
Member (Idle past 4448 days)
Posts: 82
From: Winnetka, CA
Joined: 11-13-2006


Message 8 of 320 (395329)
04-16-2007 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Dr Adequate
04-16-2007 12:25 AM


Re: Is there such a thing as "The Bible?"
Dr Adequate writes:

A scientist would want to know which, if either, of the two accounts was true before deciding which one to "toss aside".

i understand that perfectly clear. there are some times when a scientists finds a certain data that is completely off from other data which are agreeable with others, and THAT new data that is incorrect is wrong. for instance

lets say some scientists date a rock

123,000,000
122,000,000
123,500,000
123,000,000
817,192,213

which one would be considered wrong? compared to all the data that last one is unfortunately wrong and will be tossed aside, this has happened


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-16-2007 12:25 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Taz, posted 04-16-2007 12:43 AM Juraikken has responded
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 Message 15 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-16-2007 12:55 AM Juraikken has not yet responded

  
Juraikken
Member (Idle past 4448 days)
Posts: 82
From: Winnetka, CA
Joined: 11-13-2006


Message 9 of 320 (395330)
04-16-2007 12:43 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Taz
04-16-2007 12:40 AM


Re: Is there such a thing as "The Bible?"
alright then, how would be be able to discern the bible being fact without looking at facts, i was using a mere example to show what i meant by WHY they tossed aside a certain book
This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Taz, posted 04-16-2007 12:40 AM Taz has not yet responded

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 1551 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 10 of 320 (395331)
04-16-2007 12:43 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Juraikken
04-16-2007 12:40 AM


Re: Is there such a thing as "The Bible?"
Juraikken writes:

which one would be considered wrong? compared to all the data that last one is unfortunately wrong and will be tossed aside, this has happened


Please refrain from making cheap and ignorant smears at science. Violating the 9th commandment would hardly support your case.


Disclaimer:

Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.

He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Juraikken, posted 04-16-2007 12:40 AM Juraikken has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Juraikken, posted 04-16-2007 12:46 AM Taz has responded
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jar
Member
Posts: 31281
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 11 of 320 (395332)
04-16-2007 12:45 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Juraikken
04-16-2007 12:11 AM


Re: Is there such a thing as "The Bible?"
As I said, the smallest Canon contains only the Pentateuch and excludes everything beyond that including ALL of the New Testament.

and ive also read SOME of the books that are not part of the regular bible today, it goes against what Jesus teaches.

There is no such thing as the "regular Bible" today. Never has been. What constitutes the "regular Bible" depends on the Christian Sect you belong to.

its like this all 4 gospels said the same thing, if a 5th came along and said completely different it gets tossed aside, is that wrong?

That is not how science does it at all. Nor is it the case with the different Canon. For example Enoch, the source for the story about Satan's Fall is included in some Canon, excluded in others. 2Peter, 2 & 3John, Jude and Revelations are included in some canon but excluded from others.

It is not a matter that something new comes along, it is that the men, plain old men that decide what is in a particular Canon make choices.

The Bible is definitely not "Godly made", but rather very much the creation of man.

And, of course, none of the 4 Gospels say the same thing, they all have areas of contradiction.

Even the very existence of four Gospels is evidence that what we see is the work of man, not GOD. GOD would certainly be capable of telling the story one time, fully, completely and without error. But that is not what we see. Instead, the four main Gospels (and there are actually quite a few Gospels in addition to the basic four) were each written by unknown people, many, many decades after Jesus death.

There are many other such examples. The creation story in Genesis 1 is entirely different than the older, combined tales found in Genesis 2. Even the depiction of God found in the two tales is entirely different.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Juraikken, posted 04-16-2007 12:11 AM Juraikken has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Juraikken, posted 04-16-2007 1:02 AM jar has responded

Juraikken
Member (Idle past 4448 days)
Posts: 82
From: Winnetka, CA
Joined: 11-13-2006


Message 12 of 320 (395333)
04-16-2007 12:46 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Taz
04-16-2007 12:43 AM


Re: Is there such a thing as "The Bible?"
Tazmanian Devil writes:


Please refrain from making cheap and ignorant smears at science. Violating the 9th commandment would hardly support your case.

i dont see how its a cheap and ignorant smear, am i wrong? science doesnt do that? im not even putting down science, lol im using the scientific method here to discern truth from fact, you observe...etc


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Taz, posted 04-16-2007 12:43 AM Taz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Taz, posted 04-16-2007 12:52 AM Juraikken has not yet responded

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 772 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 13 of 320 (395335)
04-16-2007 12:52 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Juraikken
04-16-2007 12:40 AM


Re: Is there such a thing as "The Bible?"
actually, science would attempt to explain why that "817,192,213" was so far off from the rest. it would not throw it out just because it disagrees without looking for why it disagrees.

science does not reject data out of hand. at least, not science done properly.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Juraikken, posted 04-16-2007 12:40 AM Juraikken has not yet responded

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 1551 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 14 of 320 (395336)
04-16-2007 12:52 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Juraikken
04-16-2007 12:46 AM


Re: Is there such a thing as "The Bible?"
Juraikken writes:

science doesnt do that?


Well, for me, bearing false witness includes telling half-truths. You've described a part of something while leaving out the rest and called it "the scientific method".

im not even putting down science, lol im using the scientific method here to discern truth from fact, you observe...etc

God help us if people actually believe you that what you are using is the real scientific method. But what does it matter, nowadays we have people who remembered 2 words from his high school biology text book and thinks he's a biologist.

For admins, sorry for the interruption. It just itched too much to not point out violation of the 9th commandment.


Disclaimer:

Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.

He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Juraikken, posted 04-16-2007 12:46 AM Juraikken has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16104
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 15 of 320 (395338)
04-16-2007 12:55 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Juraikken
04-16-2007 12:40 AM


Re: Is there such a thing as "The Bible?"
lets say some scientists date a rock

123,000,000
122,000,000
123,500,000
123,000,000
817,192,213

which one would be considered wrong?

At that point you'd make more measurements. And you'd try to replicate the methodology of the fifth measurement. And you'd calibrate your measuring equipment. Oh, and you'd also check to see whether this was, in fact, the same rock.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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