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Author Topic:   Something From Nothing?
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12803
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1 of 124 (75769)
12-30-2003 4:06 AM


Ahhh! A great discussion on the Big Bang vs the Creation theory!
Here is my 2 cents worth. If the Big Bang theory is true, answer these questions:
1) How did something come from nothing. This means, how did matter come from non matter as an original cause? For the Creation theory, the question boils down to this question: Which came first? Creation(matter) or a Creator?
2) How Did Life originate? Frankenstein...electricity?? By now, you guys know that I am a Christian absolutist. By definition, I would think that much of the collective belief systems originate from one of two sources:
A) God is the eternally existant first cause. From God originates the very definitions and realities of creation, love, power, and energy.
the antithesis of this belief is B.
B) Man is the source of all wisdom. Man defines truth. Man defines religion. Man defines knowledge by our evolutionary growth and understanding.
Obviously, I am a believer along the path of A, but I respect everyone in this forum and shall try and understand any comments..k?
Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by helena, posted 12-30-2003 4:19 AM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 4 by crashfrog, posted 12-30-2003 4:50 AM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 12 by Beercules, posted 01-01-2004 12:16 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded
 Message 13 by Prozacman, posted 01-02-2004 3:18 PM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 15 by sidelined, posted 01-03-2004 3:22 AM Thugpreacha has responded
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helena 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4102 days)
Posts: 80
Joined: 03-27-2008


Message 2 of 124 (75771)
12-30-2003 4:19 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Thugpreacha
12-30-2003 4:06 AM


How about the posing the other question?
If god is the origin, where did he come from?
(there's at least one thread of discussion on this topic).
My point is that saying "god just is" does not explain anything.
my best regards
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-30-2003 4:06 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12803
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 3 of 124 (75773)
12-30-2003 4:45 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by helena
12-30-2003 4:19 AM


Reply1
Well.... Good point. Are you saying that if an origin exists, where did that origin originate from? This shows me that you ascribe to (B) where you yourself must define the origin rather than acknowledge an origin as having made you. It all boils down to these two potential origins. A Creator is my origin or I define the origin, thus my intellect satisfies the question. I do not mean to suggest that you are right OR wrong. I by definition believe in an Origin that made me, while you seek to define the very definition of the concept of Origin.
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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 124 (75775)
12-30-2003 4:50 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Thugpreacha
12-30-2003 4:06 AM


How did something come from nothing.

It's possible that something came from nothing via the same process that causes something to come from nothing at every moment in every point in space. Look it up - it's called the "Casimir Effect" and it means that matter is continually popping in and out of existence at every point in space.

How Did Life originate?

I don't know. But I do know that, no matter how unlikely it was, it only had to happen once.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-30-2003 4:06 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-30-2003 5:01 AM crashfrog has responded
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12803
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 5 of 124 (75777)
12-30-2003 5:01 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by crashfrog
12-30-2003 4:50 AM


Something from Nothing>Crashfrog
I will look this up tomorrow...I gotta get some sleep tonite! Thanks for chatting! You stay up late, Crashfrog!
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by crashfrog, posted 12-30-2003 5:23 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 124 (75779)
12-30-2003 5:23 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Thugpreacha
12-30-2003 5:01 AM


You stay up late, Crashfrog!

I staff the night desk at a hotel. And they just set up internet access in the back office. Woot!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-30-2003 5:01 AM Thugpreacha has responded

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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12803
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 7 of 124 (75795)
12-30-2003 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by crashfrog
12-30-2003 5:23 AM


Something From Nothing? Reply#7
Sacred Mathematics represents a wholly contained and internally consistent philosophy -- a philosophy which describes physical reality, its cosmogony and every aspect of its science. The Greek Philosopher, Plato, has said: “Geometry is knowledge of the eternally existent. Numbers are the highest degree of knowledge. It is knowledge itself.” This came off one of those mathimatical websites. Now...surmise this: If numbers are the highest degree of knowledge, can a mind imagine infinity? (Yes) Well...in line with the biblical "fable" of original sin, if man can be as gods, can man imagine omnipotance? (of course) Thus...it all gets back to what one believes is the point of knowledge and wisdom creation....our own minds, either individually or collectively? Or perhaps a Higher source apart from us??
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helena 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4102 days)
Posts: 80
Joined: 03-27-2008


Message 8 of 124 (75810)
12-30-2003 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Thugpreacha
12-30-2003 9:31 AM


Re: Something From Nothing? Reply#7
quote:
Sacred Mathematics...

huh?

I am not sure what it is you want to establish. Is this another argument along the lines that "science is religion"? There has been plenty discussion on this subject. For me the bottomline is: Science is a method to establish a connex between theoretical models and reality to establish a broad understanding of our surroundings. It makes no assumptions beyond "unproveable" truths (axioms). Those axioms still are prone to falsification as one only has to show one case in which the axiom is not fulfilled.
Religion makes the assumption of one (or as the case may be many) creators whose existence is not falsifiable. One is then very often left with what is commonly referred to as a "god of the gaps", i.e. a celestial being that is responsible for everything contemporary science is (yet) unable to explain. When several centuries ago the diversity of life on the planet was not easily explainable in scientific terms, people believed in a creator. Nowadays, we have a pretty good understanding of the diversification of life once life existed. Now people have gone to claiming that the origin of life must still be explained by the interference of "god" (theistic evolution if you will).
I'll wager that in the not so distant future science will have understood the origin of life quite well, then one is left with what?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-30-2003 9:31 AM Thugpreacha has responded

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 Message 9 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-30-2003 12:08 PM helena has not yet responded

    
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12803
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 9 of 124 (75821)
12-30-2003 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by helena
12-30-2003 10:57 AM


Re: Something From Nothing? Reply#9
This is true about science. You are correct, but my point is that what I originally stated still defines the issue:By definition, I would think that much of the collective belief systems originate from one of two sources:
A) God is the eternally existant first cause. From God originates the very definitions and realities of creation, love, power, and energy.
the antithesis of this belief is B.
B) Man is the source of all wisdom. Man defines truth. Man defines religion. Man defines knowledge by our evolutionary growth and understanding.
It is true that by definition, God may be unprovable whereas gravity may be very provable. God has been provable to my satisfaction based on the following:
1) Mystical experiences of a personal nature.
2) Evidence of changed lives from people whom I personally know.
3) An internal realization that cannot be proven but is simply known.
I must admit, however, that none of my proofs are inclusive as scientific evidence for everyone. Many will find alternative explanations for the experiences which I have witnessed. Thus, I can give the atheist side the argument that theism is "unprovable."
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Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Rei, posted 12-30-2003 5:21 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Rei
Member (Idle past 5271 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 10 of 124 (75856)
12-30-2003 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Thugpreacha
12-30-2003 12:08 PM


Re: Something From Nothing? Reply#9
You ought to have responses for these three things:

quote:
1) Mystical experiences of a personal nature.

Far more people in the world, both present and past, have had "mystical experiences of a personal nature" that have led them to completely other beliefs. Knowing how readily the human mind deceives itself (read a paper some time about the accuracy of witness testimony, and why it suffers so heavily) should further cast doubt on this.

quote:
2) Evidence of changed lives from people whom I personally know.

Any belief can (and will) change your life, so long as you actually believe it. It's sort of a given.

quote:
3) An internal realization that cannot be proven but is simply known.

See #1.

Also, going back to your initial premise, we are left with the following options:

1) That a universe with a simple basic set of rules just happened to exist
or
2) That a universe with a near infinitely more complex set of rules that form up a sentient deity just happened to exist.

Occam's Razor trims that down quite readily.

Furthermore, there is the possibility that *all* basic sets of rules exist in separate universes. We only experience this one because this is the universe that formed us.

------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-30-2003 12:08 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-31-2003 2:29 AM Rei has responded

    
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12803
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 11 of 124 (75963)
12-31-2003 2:29 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Rei
12-30-2003 5:21 PM


Re: Something From Nothing?
Ok,Rei....let us test the hypothesis of any possibility that a Diety could and would speak to humans through ancient writings translated unto the present. Now let me get personal...does this prospect annoy you? Perhaps the possibility of all logic in ones own mind being refuted is daunting. I know that I bristle when asked to consider the possibility of no Diety. And it is true that in our free thought nation, each of us has a right to our own beliefs. Some things are clear to me, however.
1) I can not "prove" the existence of a Diety. You cannot "prove" the non existence of one either. To get back on topic, what is the source of our conviction? Is it our own animated uniqueness, or is it an impartated "awareness"? Perhaps many of you feel comfortable with cold hard facts that you can quantify. All that I have to offer as my evidence is my inner quantification. To an absolute truth believer, an absolute exists. To an atheist, no absolute exists in the realm of belief. To be fair, most atheists have an open mind and would love to be shown a fact that would allow their worldview to expand. Perhaps this is not as true with so called "believers" who will hang on to their sacred cow despite being unable to explain the rationale. I suppose that my defense of my "personal rationale and conviction" is an inner conviction which I cannot share. I am only trying to share this conviction out of a spirit of wonder and respect. I seek not to bother anyone. (whew! I am a long winded writer...sorry, guys!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Rei, posted 12-30-2003 5:21 PM Rei has responded

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Beercules
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 124 (76127)
01-01-2004 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Thugpreacha
12-30-2003 4:06 AM


quote:
How did something come from nothing. This means, how did matter come from non matter as an original cause? For the Creation theory, the question boils down to this question: Which came first? Creation(matter) or a Creator?

The big bang doesn't suggest the universe arose from "nothing" or "non matter" at all. A little reading up on what the actual theory is would avoid confusion like this. Since you're a creationist, I will take the time to inform you that the big bang theory is not about a dot that spun out of control and exploded.
quote:
How Did Life originate? Frankenstein...electricity?? By now, you guys know that I am a Christian absolutist. By definition, I would think that much of the collective belief systems originate from one of two sources:

This has nothing to do with the big bang whatsoever. One deals with biology and the other deals with the dense, early universe. How can you get those confused?
quote:
Obviously, I am a believer along the path of A, but I respect everyone in this forum and shall try and understand any comments..k?

Neither A or B has anything remotely to do with the origin of life.

This forum is for the discussion of cosmology, and how it relates to the evolution/creation debate. You mention the big bang, but your post has very little to do with it. If you want to discuss cosmology, great. But please don't throw things off course by bringing up the origin of life, religion or epistemology when it doeesn't belong here.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-30-2003 4:06 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

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Prozacman
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 124 (76264)
01-02-2004 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Thugpreacha
12-30-2003 4:06 AM


Hopefully I can answer your ?'s.1. I suppose that if scientists went to church, and some may, they would come to believe that God made the universe. But as scientists in the labratory, they would have to leave ?'s of faith out of the picture because they are required to hypothesize, theorize, test, observe, etc., about what it is they're studying. This does not mean that these scientists may totally rid themselves of the idea that "God did it". Instead, without bringing any bias into their experiments, observations, etc., they may choose to ask themselves, "How did God make the Big-Bang happen?" I don't know for sure myself 2.Life may have originated in hydrosulfuric vents at the bottom of the ocean where tiny creatures could evolve to feed on the highly consentrated nutrients spewing out of the vents.
Both A&B, I believe, are assumptions on your part?
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Rei
Member (Idle past 5271 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 14 of 124 (76270)
01-02-2004 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Thugpreacha
12-31-2003 2:29 AM


Re: Something From Nothing?
quote:
Ok,Rei....let us test the hypothesis of any possibility that a Diety could and would speak to humans through ancient writings translated unto the present. Now let me get personal...does this prospect annoy you?

Not at all, although it seems like an odd prospect - certainly not something I would do if I were a deity. However, there is no logical contradiction in that.

quote:
Perhaps the possibility of all logic in ones own mind being refuted is daunting.

Logic and the scientific method got us the car, modern medicine, and central air. I'll stick with them, thank you very much.

quote:
I know that I bristle when asked to consider the possibility of no Diety.

And I don't do the opposite. Strange, that....

quote:
1) I can not "prove" the existence of a Diety. You cannot "prove" the non existence of one either. To get back on topic, what is the source of our conviction?

I can only answer for myself, of course. There are an infinite number of "could-be"s in the universe. There could be an invisible snake sitting right next to your computer, getting ready to strike and kill you should you move. On the other hand, there might be an invisible rampaging troll heading toward you that will surely kill you if you don't move. There might be invisible gnomes waiting to blind you should you step outside your door, and invisible elves looking to decapitate you if you don't. You can't live your life around "unreasonable possibilities"; a person, consequently, is forced to discard unreasonable possibilities. Your deity falls under that category, just like invisible pink unicorns do.

quote:
Perhaps many of you feel comfortable with cold hard facts that you can quantify.

Mmm... gotta love that feel of central air!...... (see earlier reference)

quote:
To be fair, most atheists have an open mind and would love to be shown a fact that would allow their worldview to expand. Perhaps this is not as true with so called "believers" who will hang on to their sacred cow despite being unable to explain the rationale. I suppose that my defense of my "personal rationale and conviction" is an inner conviction which I cannot share.

The same inner conviction that leads hindus to believe that cows are sacred? The same inner conviction that leads shintos to believe that there are nature spirits everywhere? The same inner conviction that leads one to believe that Mohammed was a prophet of God? All of these people feel just as strongly about their beliefs as you do.

quote:
I am only trying to share this conviction out of a spirit of wonder and respect. I seek not to bother anyone. (whew! I am a long winded writer...sorry, guys!

No, it's good to have differing opinions - it'd be boring here if there weren't any!


"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."
This message is a reply to:
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sidelined
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 124 (76348)
01-03-2004 3:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Thugpreacha
12-30-2003 4:06 AM


Phatboy
You state.
If the Big Bang theory is true, answer these questions:
1) How did something come from nothing. This means, how did matter come from non matter as an original cause? For the Creation theory, the question boils down to this question: Which came first? Creation(matter) or a Creator?

I am sorry but for the creation theory do you have an explanation of how God created something from nothing that explains things?

Where is it written in stone that the universe came from nothing?Take a moment to consider what it means to say that[in your humble opinion]nothing ever once existed. It is a logical paradox.Nothing once existed.Three simple words and the first and last contradict one another.

Things are not so cut and dried when it comes to the origin of the universe is it? Science can wind the clock back and I will give a little excerpt from this web site.
http://zebu.uoregon.edu/~js/glossary/planck_time.html

Planck Time :
The characteristic linear dimension is given as a certain combination of the three most fundamental constants of nature: (1) Planck's constant h (named after the German physicist Max Planck, the founder of quantum physics), (2) the speed of light c, and (3) the universal gravitational constant G. The combination, called the Planck length (Gh/c3)1/2, equals roughly 10-33 cm, far smaller than the distances to which elementary particles can be probed in particle accelerators on the Earth.

The energies needed to smash particles to within a Planck length of each other were available to the universe at a time equal to the Planck length divided by the speed of light. This time, called the Planck time (Gh/c5)1/2, equals approximately 10-43 second. At the Planck time, the mass density of the universe is thought to approach the Planck density, c5/hG2, roughly 1093 g/cc . Contained within a Planck volume is a Planck mass (hc/G)1/2, roughly 10-5 g. An object of such mass would be a quantum black hole, with an event horizon close to both its own Compton length (distance over which a particle is quantum mechanically "fuzzy") and the size of the cosmic horizon at the Planck time. Under such extreme conditions, spacetime cannot be treated as a classical continuum and must be given a quantum interpretation.

So here we can follow the path back through time to an instant when the age of the universe was [10 * -43] seconds old and everything in the universe You ,I, Alpha Cetauri, the most distant quasars EVERYTHING was contained in a volume of space I believe was on the order of [10 * -35] meters.An atom is only on the order of [10 * -10] meters.

Check out this site and you can get an idea of the implications of this.
http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/java/scienceopticsu/powersof10/

The point of this is to show that science is hugely descriptive and unveils a rich tapestry of connections between the extremely small and the staggeringly immense.By comparison the Bible and the God it portrays are poor children stories without much imagination.


...people today are so accustomed to pretentious nonsense that they see nothing amiss in reading without understanding, and many of them at length discover that they can without difficulty write in like manner themselves and win applause for it. And so it perpetuates itself.
G. A. Wells, 1991
This message is a reply to:
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