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Author Topic:   No Abiogenesis, no Evolution, then what?
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6800
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 7.2


Message 106 of 173 (293544)
03-09-2006 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by inkorrekt
03-08-2006 9:03 PM


Re: What is the other option?
Except that proteins are not puzzles put together by people using pre-cut pieces out of a box. So your analogy is not apt.


"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt
This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by inkorrekt, posted 03-08-2006 9:03 PM inkorrekt has not yet responded

  
inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 4341 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 107 of 173 (295310)
03-14-2006 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Chiroptera
03-07-2006 6:36 PM


Re: What is the other option?
We are all missing the point of discussion here. Assembling a puzzle has nothing to do with a-biogenesis. Here it is the correct information that a person has to either synthesize or assimilate in order to complete the puzzle. What is information? It is similar to the Code in DNA. Prior information is neccessary for any useful activity or function. Is this information DNA? No, DNA is the physical entity which has the information in the form of the sequence of the bases. So, for information, intelligence is necessary. Assembly of DNA also requires intelligence. This intelligence is not physical. It is intangible.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Chiroptera, posted 03-07-2006 6:36 PM Chiroptera has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Chiroptera, posted 03-14-2006 5:12 PM inkorrekt has responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6800
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 7.2


Message 108 of 173 (295312)
03-14-2006 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by inkorrekt
03-14-2006 5:00 PM


quote:
Assembling a puzzle has nothing to do with a-biogenesis.

That is what I was pointing out. I am happy that you agree with me on this. Nonetheless, it is curious since the puzzle was your analogy. But as along as we agree that the analogy is not apt, we can move on.

-

quote:
What is information?

A good question indeed, and one that the IDists have not yet been able to answer.

-

quote:
It is similar to the Code in DNA.

In what way?

-

quote:
No, DNA is the physical entity which has the information in the form of the sequence of the bases.

Perhaps this will make sense when you have told us what information is. As it stands, it is a meaningless sentence.

-

quote:
So, for information, intelligence is necessary.

Perhaps this will be clear when you have told us what information is. As it stands, this is simply an unsupported statement.

-

quote:
Assembly of DNA also requires intelligence.

Actually, DNA is constantly being assembled in my very cells. No intelligence necessary.


"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt
This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by inkorrekt, posted 03-14-2006 5:00 PM inkorrekt has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by inkorrekt, posted 03-15-2006 3:36 PM Chiroptera has responded

  
inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 4341 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 109 of 173 (295613)
03-15-2006 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Chiroptera
03-14-2006 5:12 PM


good assumptions
Very well written excellent assumptions.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Chiroptera, posted 03-14-2006 5:12 PM Chiroptera has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Chiroptera, posted 03-15-2006 3:40 PM inkorrekt has responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6800
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 7.2


Message 110 of 173 (295615)
03-15-2006 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by inkorrekt
03-15-2006 3:36 PM


Are you a 'bot?
Thank you. How about answering the question? What is information, and how does it have the characteristics that you claimed for it?


"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt
This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by inkorrekt, posted 03-15-2006 3:36 PM inkorrekt has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by inkorrekt, posted 04-24-2006 7:52 PM Chiroptera has responded

  
inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 4341 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 111 of 173 (306336)
04-24-2006 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Chiroptera
03-15-2006 3:40 PM


Re: Are you a 'bot?
Actually, DNA is constantly being assembled in my very cells. No intelligence necessary

It sounds like a robot inside the cells. Even if we assume that it is a robot, the robot has to be given the information( by a Software programmer) to assemble the DNA's. Information is not materialistic. You can have a library full of documents. Here the information is in the form of Documents either on paper or microfilm or magnetic material.The form of storage varies. But, it is still the information which is not a physical entity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Chiroptera, posted 03-15-2006 3:40 PM Chiroptera has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Chiroptera, posted 04-24-2006 11:22 PM inkorrekt has responded
 Message 114 by ReverendDG, posted 04-25-2006 3:37 AM inkorrekt has not yet responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6800
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 7.2


Message 112 of 173 (306371)
04-24-2006 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by inkorrekt
04-24-2006 7:52 PM


You are a troll!
You are not answering the question.

What is information? Give a precise, scientifically useful definition. I do not want an analogy. I want to know precisely what is information, and I want to know how to determine whether a cell contains information.


"Religion is the best business to be in. It's the only one where the customers blame themselves for product failure."
-- Ellis Weiner (quoted on the NAiG message board)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by inkorrekt, posted 04-24-2006 7:52 PM inkorrekt has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by inkorrekt, posted 04-25-2006 11:59 PM Chiroptera has responded

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12624
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002


Message 113 of 173 (306388)
04-25-2006 2:03 AM


Forum Guidelines Warning
Please leave personal comments/accusations out of the discussion.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

    
ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 2370 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 114 of 173 (306396)
04-25-2006 3:37 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by inkorrekt
04-24-2006 7:52 PM


Re: Are you a 'bot?
It sounds like a robot inside the cells. Even if we assume that it is a robot, the robot has to be given the information( by a Software programmer) to assemble the DNA's. Information is not materialistic. You can have a library full of documents. Here the information is in the form of Documents either on paper or microfilm or magnetic material.The form of storage varies. But, it is still the information which is not a physical entity

so what is information, is there even an answer to be found or is information like complexity where its obcurity to not answer questions
This message is a reply to:
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inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 4341 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 115 of 173 (306613)
04-25-2006 11:59 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by Chiroptera
04-24-2006 11:22 PM


Re: You are a troll!
I want to know how to determine whether a cell contains information
.
It is very simple. I am not a molecular biologist. Therefore, I cannot give specific details. If i remember correctly at the Louis Pasteur University, they did a classical experiment. They inroduced a modified genetic material into a frog embryo and they made this to synthesize human serum albumin. Frog nnormally does not synthesize human serum albumin. This genetic material had the information. This information was transferred to frog embryo. Frog embryo took the information and processed it. Then, it sysnthesized human serum albumin. If you put in a different gentic information, then you will get a different material. This information was in the form of specific nucleotide sequences.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Chiroptera, posted 04-24-2006 11:22 PM Chiroptera has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by inkorrekt, posted 04-26-2006 12:03 AM inkorrekt has not yet responded
 Message 117 by Chiroptera, posted 04-26-2006 8:30 AM inkorrekt has responded

  
inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 4341 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 116 of 173 (306614)
04-26-2006 12:03 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by inkorrekt
04-25-2006 11:59 PM


Re: You are a troll!
I want to know how to determine whether a cell contains information
. We have DNA sequencers available. You can throw in any cellular material. This machine will analyse the nucleotide sequences. The sequence of nucleotide in the DNA is the information. If it is acell, it will have DNA and you can find out the information(nucleotide sequence) It will be combinations of A-G-T-C (A-adenine, G-guanine, T-thymidine, C-Cytosine) If there is no DNA, there will be no information. It is as simple as this.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by inkorrekt, posted 04-25-2006 11:59 PM inkorrekt has not yet responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6800
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 7.2


Message 117 of 173 (306671)
04-26-2006 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by inkorrekt
04-25-2006 11:59 PM


quote:
I am not a molecular biologist.

That's odd. I could swear that I remember you claiming to be a molecular biologist or a biochemist or something when you first showed up.

-

quote:
This genetic material had the information.

So you claim. Yet it only remains a claim because you cannot give us a precise scientific definition of "information". Since a precise scientific definition of "information" has not been provided, saying that genetic information has information is meaningless. When you try to use "information" in a discussion, you prove nothing.

Let us try again: What is information? How does one measure the amount of information in a system? How does one detect the presence of information?


"Religion is the best business to be in. It's the only one where the customers blame themselves for product failure."
-- Ellis Weiner (quoted on the NAiG message board)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by inkorrekt, posted 04-25-2006 11:59 PM inkorrekt has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by inkorrekt, posted 04-27-2006 8:23 PM Chiroptera has not yet responded
 Message 121 by inkorrekt, posted 04-27-2006 10:08 PM Chiroptera has responded

  
inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 4341 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 118 of 173 (307194)
04-27-2006 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Chiroptera
04-26-2006 8:30 AM


Waht did you leanr in School?
What is information?

You already know this.Do not you? What did you learn in school? Was it pictures, calculations Stories? What did your teachers impart you with?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Chiroptera, posted 04-26-2006 8:30 AM Chiroptera has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by NosyNed, posted 04-27-2006 8:44 PM inkorrekt has not yet responded
 Message 120 by Percy, posted 04-27-2006 9:00 PM inkorrekt has not yet responded

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8860
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 119 of 173 (307203)
04-27-2006 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by inkorrekt
04-27-2006 8:23 PM


What is information.
The question isn't if anyone else knows what information is, Inkorrect, but if you know. It is pretty clear to everyone that you don't. If I'm "inkorrect" about that you can have fun showing everyone that I am. :)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by inkorrekt, posted 04-27-2006 8:23 PM inkorrekt has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18842
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 120 of 173 (307209)
04-27-2006 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by inkorrekt
04-27-2006 8:23 PM


Re: Waht did you leanr in School?
inkorrekt writes:

What is information?

You already know this.Do not you? What did you learn in school? Was it pictures, calculations Stories? What did your teachers impart you with?

Chiroptera was probably just checking to see if you knew that information has a formal definition. Scientific conceptions of information are Shannon information (see http:///DataDropsite/Shannon.pdf). Creationists like William Dembski, Werner Gitt and Lee Spetner have suggested their own alternative definitions of information that haven't found acceptance within the scientific community.

What I think Chiroptera is trying to point out is that before you can make claims about creating information or whether it increases or decreases you first have to have a formal definition of information that permits you to measure it. Otherwise you have no way to answer questions like, "Which genome has more information, the chimp or the human?"

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by inkorrekt, posted 04-27-2006 8:23 PM inkorrekt has not yet responded

    
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