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Author Topic:   No Abiogenesis, no Evolution, then what?
inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 4341 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 121 of 173 (307219)
04-27-2006 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Chiroptera
04-26-2006 8:30 AM


what is information?
What is information?

When insects carry pollen, they actually carry genetic information.The actual substance is unimportant. So for information transfer, a physical carrier for storage and for the control of processes and a defined coding system for representing ideas in the form of symbols that can be copied.Several hierarchical levels characterise all information which is (syntax, code, grammar, semantics and pragmatics. These are structurally, non material. Every piece of information implies the existence of a sender and a receiver
Information is inherently, not a material entity, but a mental or spiritual one.Material processes do not qualify as sources of information. Information is not a probablistic entity. Information only originates voluntarily(intention,intuition, disposition). Every piece of information has a mental(intelluctual and spiritual) source

Mutation and selection cannot produce new information.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Chiroptera, posted 04-26-2006 8:30 AM Chiroptera has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by RAZD, posted 04-27-2006 10:33 PM inkorrekt has not yet responded
 Message 123 by ReverendDG, posted 04-28-2006 4:55 AM inkorrekt has not yet responded
 Message 124 by Chiroptera, posted 04-28-2006 8:10 AM inkorrekt has not yet responded
 Message 125 by Admin, posted 04-28-2006 8:20 AM inkorrekt has responded
 Message 126 by Percy, posted 04-28-2006 8:52 AM inkorrekt has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20119
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 122 of 173 (307225)
04-27-2006 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by inkorrekt
04-27-2006 10:08 PM


Re: what is information?
When insects carry pollen, they actually carry genetic information.....Mutation and selection cannot produce new information.

Mutation and selection have produced new pollen, pollen that carries the genetic information for new species of plants. Pollen that has never been produced before.

In addition, we have insects that have evolved wings, lost wings and re-evolved wings. Explain that with a system that only loses information.

Enjoy.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by inkorrekt, posted 04-27-2006 10:08 PM inkorrekt has not yet responded

  
ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 2370 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 123 of 173 (307249)
04-28-2006 4:55 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by inkorrekt
04-27-2006 10:08 PM


Re: what is information?
Wow, the non-answer of this takes the breath away, this is pure gobblty-gook
not one word answered the question of what information is, i could think it was a blue-print maybe, but blue-prints are material

you just basically killed any chance of information being used as a defense, when you claim information is not part of the materal world.
by the way intelligence is a product of the brain so it is materal

Mutation and selection cannot produce new information.

you could say this if your use of "information had a defention instead of being useless
This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by inkorrekt, posted 04-27-2006 10:08 PM inkorrekt has not yet responded

    
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6800
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 7.2


Message 124 of 173 (307281)
04-28-2006 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by inkorrekt
04-27-2006 10:08 PM


Re: what is information?
quote:
When insects carry pollen, they actually carry genetic information.

So you claim. However, you have never demonstrated that your claim should be taken seriously. In fact, the longer it takes you to finally get around to providing a definition of information, the more we become convinced that this claim shouldn't be taken seriously.

-

quote:
So for information transfer, a physical carrier for storage and for the control of processes and a defined coding system for representing ideas in the form of symbols that can be copied.

Irrelevent to the question. My request is pretty simple: provide a scientifically precise definition of "information", a definition that we can use to determine whether or not a cell contains information, as you have claimed.

-

quote:
Several hierarchical levels characterise all information which is (syntax, code, grammar, semantics and pragmatics.

Uh-oh. Now you are introducing even more words that need definitions. So far, you are only muddying up the waters. The addition of even more vaguely (and semantically loaded) terms appears to be an attempt at obfuscation.

-

quote:
Every piece of information implies the existence of a sender and a receiver

Another claim that you need to support.

-

quote:
Information only originates voluntarily(intention,intuition, disposition). Every piece of information has a mental(intelluctual and spiritual) source

Yes, this is yet another claim that continues to be made. Once you have provided a workable definition of information, you can try to show us that it requires an intellectual source.

-

quote:
Mutation and selection cannot produce new information.

That may be true. But since you have yet to tell us what "information" is, the truth of that statement is in doubt.


"Religion is the best business to be in. It's the only one where the customers blame themselves for product failure."
-- Ellis Weiner (quoted on the NAiG message board)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by inkorrekt, posted 04-27-2006 10:08 PM inkorrekt has not yet responded

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12624
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002


Message 125 of 173 (307287)
04-28-2006 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by inkorrekt
04-27-2006 10:08 PM


Re: what is information?
Hi Inkorrekt,

First, you're quoting almost verbatim without attribution from Werner Gitt's book Did God Use Evolution?. Most of your post appears to come from pp 71-73.

Second, a discussion about Gitt's version of information theory would definitely derail the thread from its original topic. As long as no participant raises an objection I don't think this is a problem.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by inkorrekt, posted 04-27-2006 10:08 PM inkorrekt has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by inkorrekt, posted 04-28-2006 11:07 AM Admin has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18842
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 126 of 173 (307302)
04-28-2006 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by inkorrekt
04-27-2006 10:08 PM


Re: what is information?
inkorrekt writes:

Mutation and selection cannot produce new information.

As the other replies have made clear, you haven't provided a useful definition of information. A useful definition would provide a method for quantifying information in order to test assertions, such as that mutation and selection cannot produce new information (Gitt's Theorem 9 verbatim).

Using Shannon information (again, his landmark paper can be found at http:///DataDropsite/Shannon.pdf) we can measure how much information is present in a population for a given gene. For example, the gene for eye color in a population of squirrels may include three different colors: red, green and brown (the different types of a gene are called alleles, so therefore this gene for eye color has three alleles: red, green and brown). Three eye colors can be represented in log23 = 1.59 bits of binary data. The number of bits of information needed to represent three eye colors can be used as a measure of the amount of information contained in the eye color gene for this squirrel population.

Now let's say that one squirrel couple gives birth to a baby squirrel with a mutation in the eye color gene that gives its eyes the color yellow. The population of squirrels now has four eye color alleles for the eye color gene: red, green, brown and yellow. The amount of information needed to represent four alleles of eye color is log24 = 2 bits. So the amount of information in the eye color gene has increased from 1.59 bits to 2 bits, an increase of .41 bits.

The new baby squirrel grows to adulthood and has many children, some of whom inherit the yellow eye color allele. The new allele gradually spreads through the population. Since the new eye color has not been selected against, it becomes a new allele of the eye color gene for the squirrel population, and the amount of information contained in that gene has increased by .41 bits.

This falsifies Gitt's Theorem 9 that mutation and selection cannot produce new information.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by inkorrekt, posted 04-27-2006 10:08 PM inkorrekt has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by inkorrekt, posted 05-02-2006 9:56 PM Percy has responded

    
inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 4341 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 127 of 173 (307357)
04-28-2006 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by Admin
04-28-2006 8:20 AM


Re: what is information?
I do not understand how everyone who has objected to my posts, do not understand the meaning of the simple word "Information" when we live in an era of information in a high tech society.
Well,now I know why. The reason is very simple. Creation of any new information depends on intelligence. No information can arise without intelligence and in this forum, we are discussing intelligence. No one has given any explanation as to how information can arise without intelligence. However, everyone is demanding explanation for information.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Admin, posted 04-28-2006 8:20 AM Admin has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Percy, posted 04-28-2006 11:12 AM inkorrekt has not yet responded
 Message 129 by Chiroptera, posted 04-28-2006 11:54 AM inkorrekt has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18842
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 128 of 173 (307359)
04-28-2006 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by inkorrekt
04-28-2006 11:07 AM


Re: what is information?
inkorrekt writes:

No one has given any explanation as to how information can arise without intelligence.

I just provided an example of how information arises without intelligence in Message 126.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by inkorrekt, posted 04-28-2006 11:07 AM inkorrekt has not yet responded

    
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6800
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 7.2


Message 129 of 173 (307376)
04-28-2006 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by inkorrekt
04-28-2006 11:07 AM


Re: what is information?
quote:
I do not understand how everyone who has objected to my posts....

I don't understand how you cannot understand our objections. Our objection is that you have not provided a definition of information that is suitable for determining whether a cell, in fact, contains information. Until you do so, your posts are just empty verbage.

-

quote:
do not understand the meaning of the simple word "Information" when we live in an era of information in a high tech society.

Look up the fallacy of euqivocation. I doubt that word "information" used purely colloquially when I say, "Our department head has supplied me with the information that our secretary is ill today" is at all relevant to disussing what is or is not in a cell.

Maybe it is, but you will have to tell us what "information" is.


"Religion is the best business to be in. It's the only one where the customers blame themselves for product failure."
-- Ellis Weiner (quoted on the NAiG message board)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by inkorrekt, posted 04-28-2006 11:07 AM inkorrekt has not yet responded

  
inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 4341 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 130 of 173 (308623)
05-02-2006 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Percy
04-28-2006 8:52 AM


Re: what is information?
The discussion here is on what is information. For the alleles, progenies and even mutants, the basic genetic information is necessary. A modified gene still has information as the DNA code. You had asked me the question: What is information. Now, I have to repeat the same to you.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Percy, posted 04-28-2006 8:52 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by ReverendDG, posted 05-03-2006 1:14 AM inkorrekt has not yet responded
 Message 132 by Parasomnium, posted 05-03-2006 6:56 AM inkorrekt has not yet responded
 Message 133 by Percy, posted 05-03-2006 7:58 AM inkorrekt has responded

  
ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 2370 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 131 of 173 (308674)
05-03-2006 1:14 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by inkorrekt
05-02-2006 9:56 PM


Re: what is information?
The discussion here is on what is information. For the alleles, progenies and even mutants, the basic genetic information is necessary. A modified gene still has information as the DNA code. You had asked me the question: What is information. Now, I have to repeat the same to you.

what? its YOUR job to put forth evidence of your claims not ours, you have to show how information can be used in your argument.
you have to answer us, its not our job to answer you

so i repeat what is information, i know what it is to me but you have to answer this because of your useage of the word


This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by inkorrekt, posted 05-02-2006 9:56 PM inkorrekt has not yet responded

    
Parasomnium
Member (Idle past 956 days)
Posts: 2191
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 132 of 173 (308699)
05-03-2006 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by inkorrekt
05-02-2006 9:56 PM


Re: what is information?
inkorrekt writes:

Creation of any new information depends on intelligence.

I think I understand what you mean by "new information". Please tell me if I'm correct, by looking at the following example.

Suppose we have a creature with two chararacteristics: a colour, and a number of dots. Further suppose that the colour is encoded in a certain string of DNA - we shall call it gene I - as either G (green) or B (blue), and that the number of dots is encoded in another string of DNA - gene II - as either E (eight) or N (nine).

Now consider two different scenarios:

1. A random mutation changes gene I in such a way that it can now also have the value Y (yellow).

2. A third gene (III) appears - by whatever means - that encodes whether the creature is spherical (S) or cubical (C). (We will assume that previously it was amorphous.)

I think the difference between your assessment of this situation and that of your opponents is as follows.

You think that in the first scenario no new information was introduced - the number of genes is still two, and the length of the DNA-strings that encode them has not changed - whereas in the second scenario you will concede that new information was introduced - the number of genes is now three, and more DNA is involved. You contend that the second scenario can only happen by way of intelligent intervention. Although you have not given a definition of 'information', it seems you equate it with the number of genes and/or the amount of DNA involved: "A modified gene still has information as the DNA code."

Your opponents will say that in the first scenario, new information was indeed introduced. Although the length of the encoding DNA-string has not changed, it can now encode for three phenotypes instead of two. Since it was caused by a random mutation, the will contend that no intelligence is needed for the introduction of new information.

The second scenario is another way for your opponents to have new information introduced: they do not see any barriers for mutations to produce additional DNA, and hence additional genes.

Is my analysis correct?

You said:

No one has given any explanation as to how information can arise without intelligence.

They keep asking you for a definition of 'information', but maybe they could just assume one, like I did, and proceed from there.

This message has been edited by Parasomnium, 03-May-2006 12:06 PM


"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.

Did you know that most of the time your computer is doing nothing? What if you could make it do something really useful? Like helping scientists understand diseases? Your computer could even be instrumental in finding a cure for HIV/AIDS. Wouldn't that be something? If you agree, then join World Community Grid now and download a simple, free tool that lets you and your computer do your share in helping humanity. After all, you are part of it, so why not take part in it?

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Percy
Member
Posts: 18842
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 133 of 173 (308709)
05-03-2006 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by inkorrekt
05-02-2006 9:56 PM


Re: what is information?
inkorrekt writes:

The discussion here is on what is information. For the alleles, progenies and even mutants, the basic genetic information is necessary. A modified gene still has information as the DNA code. You had asked me the question: What is information.

I was only asking you for your definition of information because your claims about it cannot be interpreted without knowing how you define it. I already know what information is from a scientific perspective, and I provided you the link, not once but twice, to Shannon's landmark paper that established the field of information theory.

Now, I have to repeat the same to you.

I just did, in the very message you're replying to, Message 126.

I provided a detailed example of the Shannon definition of information. More generally, the number of binary bits required to communicate one message of a set of messages (eye colors was my example) is the log base 2 of the number of messages. So if there are three eye colors to communicate, then the amount of information is:

log23 = 1.59 binary bits

Let us say the eye colors are red, green and brown. This gene then experiences a mutation that adds an allele for the eye color yellow. This gene now has four alleles (red, green, brown, and now yellow). The amount of information in the population for this gene is now:

log24 = 2 binary bits

Since 2 is greater than 1.59, the amount of information has increased. As I said before, this falsifies Gitt's Theorem 9 that mutation and selection cannot produce new information.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by inkorrekt, posted 05-02-2006 9:56 PM inkorrekt has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by inkorrekt, posted 05-06-2006 4:18 PM Percy has not yet responded
 Message 135 by inkorrekt, posted 05-06-2006 4:19 PM Percy has responded

    
inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 4341 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 134 of 173 (309750)
05-06-2006 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Percy
05-03-2006 7:58 AM


Re: what is information?
What you have shown here is a quantification of the data in the form of bytes.This is one way ( today's high tech age, this is the digital information).
Whether it is digital / analogue,it is a form of expression. This even does not explain what is information.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Percy, posted 05-03-2006 7:58 AM Percy has not yet responded

  
inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 4341 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 135 of 173 (309752)
05-06-2006 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Percy
05-03-2006 7:58 AM


Re: what is information?
What you have shown here is a quantification of the data in the form of bytes.This is one way ( today's high tech age, this is the digital information).
Whether it is digital / analogue,it is a form of expression. This even does not explain what is information.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Percy, posted 05-03-2006 7:58 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Percy, posted 05-06-2006 4:32 PM inkorrekt has not yet responded

  
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