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Author Topic:   About New Lamarckian Synthesis Theory
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 2079 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 211 of 264 (678578)
11-09-2012 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by zi ko
11-07-2012 6:55 AM


Re: The absurdity of "classic" evolution Theory.

That is an argument from incredulity. I don't need to explain your difficulty in accepting reality.

Reality is the big issue. How can we know it?

The way we humans "know" (or at least reassure ourselves that we know) Reality is by our discover, recognition, and elucidation of Truth, forming various models in our head of parts of the Truth we call Facts.

In other words, we gather Facts, or small parts of the larger ideal we call Truth.
We use these small pieces of the Truth to support our imagination concerning how they might be useful in describing Realty.

The way we come to establish a Fact is by means of the Scientific Method.
This method requires that under experimental conditions, all observers will experience that same conclusions concerning various Cause/Effect matters.

Genesis 1:26 infers the same thing.
Man was made capable of imaging the almighty external forces of Natural Laws in the continuously changing, ever unfolding entity we call Reality.

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God is all there is, ie; Reality itself... the whole external existence beyond our mind is the almighty God to which all life must bow:

...Truth inside our head, is the Holy Spirit, the image of God, is present inside our mind when our thinking correctly images the TRUTH, or the picture of Reality inside our mind.


This message is a reply to:
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zi ko
Member (Idle past 1879 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 212 of 264 (678891)
11-11-2012 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by Taq
11-08-2012 4:34 PM


Re: The ubsurdity of "classic" evolution Theory.
We have reached the point where we behave as if we are deaf to each other. Theoretic arguments have not any impact.
I think it is better to talk with examples:
elongated girrafes neck, being first an epigenetic change, then it came mutations that increased the number of spondyls etc. According to classic theory the mutations that increased the number of spondyls and all accompanying features (long first legs, loss of corns,etc) came one after the other randomly, without any regard to epigenetic reality and environmental pressure, untill they fit to existing phenotype, through natural selection. But again that means phenotype ( as the result of envionmental effect, is the real moto for evolution, the guiding force .

Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.



This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Taq, posted 11-08-2012 4:34 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 218 by Taq, posted 11-13-2012 10:59 AM zi ko has responded

    
Dr Jack
Member (Idle past 364 days)
Posts: 3507
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 213 of 264 (678909)
11-11-2012 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by zi ko
11-11-2012 9:25 AM


Re: The ubsurdity of "classic" elolution Theory.
Firstly, Giraffe's have exactly the same number of vertebrae has other mammals. They're lengthened to produced the longer neck, not multiplied.

Secondly, classical theory does not suggest that giraffes first acquired a long neck, then long legs, then lost corns, etc. It suggests that these different features evolved alongside each other, stepwise genetic changes altering one increased selective pressures for the other features alongside the existing environmental pressures.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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zi ko
Member (Idle past 1879 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 214 of 264 (679095)
11-12-2012 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 213 by Dr Jack
11-11-2012 10:38 AM


Re: The ubsurdity of "classic" elolution Theory.
Thanks for the information on the number of vertebrae in giraffe's neck.I would like to have your's and others opinion of what they think of giraffe's long neck and long front legs etc. Are they changes due to epigenetic mechanisms or to DNA sequence changes? and also to what degree they are epigenetic and what was the critical point that they had changed to deep DNA sequence alteration?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Dr Jack, posted 11-11-2012 10:38 AM Dr Jack has responded

Replies to this message:
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Dr Jack
Member (Idle past 364 days)
Posts: 3507
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 215 of 264 (679109)
11-12-2012 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by zi ko
11-12-2012 11:56 AM


Re: The ubsurdity of "classic" elolution Theory.
Epigenetic changes do not change into DNA changes.

There is utterly no doubt that you simply could not alter an Okapi (the Giraffe's closest relative) into a Giraffe by epigenetic change alone; you need DNA changes.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by zi ko, posted 11-12-2012 11:56 AM zi ko has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by zi ko, posted 11-12-2012 7:33 PM Dr Jack has responded

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 1879 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 216 of 264 (679174)
11-12-2012 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by Dr Jack
11-12-2012 12:47 PM


Re: The ubsurdity of "classic" elolution Theory.
Epigenetic changes do not change into DNA changes.

You surely mean ..."DNA sequence changes". Becouse DNA changes through epigenetics by histone and methylation mechanisms,and the numerous regulation mechanisms are well established.But this was not my question.My question is:Are giraffe's neck and front legs elongation etc epigenetic in nature, or due to DNA sequenc change?
And at which point of evoljtion the inevtable initial epigenetic effect was zeroed and was replaced by the DNA sequence change?


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by Dr Jack, posted 11-13-2012 2:21 AM zi ko has responded
 Message 219 by Taq, posted 11-13-2012 11:02 AM zi ko has responded

    
Dr Jack
Member (Idle past 364 days)
Posts: 3507
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 217 of 264 (679247)
11-13-2012 2:21 AM
Reply to: Message 216 by zi ko
11-12-2012 7:33 PM


Re: The ubsurdity of "classic" elolution Theory.
I do indeed mean sequence change, my bad.

None of that changes my point: there is no mechanism for the transfer of epigenetic changes to sequence changes, and no reason to think epigenetics played any major role in giraffe evolution.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by zi ko, posted 11-12-2012 7:33 PM zi ko has responded

Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 8012
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 218 of 264 (679310)
11-13-2012 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by zi ko
11-11-2012 9:25 AM


Re: The ubsurdity of "classic" evolution Theory.
elongated girrafes neck, being first an epigenetic change,

Where did you show this?

But again that means phenotype ( as the result of envionmental effect, is the real moto for evolution, the guiding force .

No, it means that natural selection is what pushes a population in a given morphological direction.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 8012
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.6


(1)
Message 219 of 264 (679313)
11-13-2012 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 216 by zi ko
11-12-2012 7:33 PM


Re: The ubsurdity of "classic" elolution Theory.
Becouse DNA changes through epigenetics by histone and methylation mechanisms,and the numerous regulation mechanisms are well established.

Histone packaging and DNA methylation does NOT change DNA sequence.

My question is:Are giraffe's neck and front legs elongation etc epigenetic in nature, or due to DNA sequenc change?

DNA sequence change, without a doubt. If giraffes were consistently given food on the ground for multiple generations you would not see them suddenly all change into okapis:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okapi


This message is a reply to:
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zi ko
Member (Idle past 1879 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 220 of 264 (679514)
11-14-2012 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by Dr Jack
11-13-2012 2:21 AM


Re: The ubsurdity of "classic" elolution Theory.
there is no mechanism for the transfer of epigenetic changes to sequence changes,
I don't say so. What i am saying is that
epigenetic changes pave the way( so guide) DNA sequence change.
...no reason to think epigenetics played any major role in giraffe evolution.


It is your belief. You don't answer my question.


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zi ko
Member (Idle past 1879 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 221 of 264 (679517)
11-14-2012 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 219 by Taq
11-13-2012 11:02 AM


Re: The ubsurdity of "classic" elolution Theory.
Histone packaging and DNA methylation does NOT change DNA sequence.
No it doesn't. Just pave the way( so guide) DNA sequence change.

If giraffes were consistently given food on the ground for multiple generations you would not see them suddenly all change into okapis:

IF it was for maybe thousand of ys we could see them changig into ocapis not suddenly though but gradually.


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zi ko
Member (Idle past 1879 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 222 of 264 (679520)
11-14-2012 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 218 by Taq
11-13-2012 10:59 AM


Re: The ubsurdity of "classic" evolution Theory.
elongated girrafes neck, being first an epigenetic change,

Where did you show this?


Surely there was a degree of epigenetic change. It exists to all animals. It is a fact. Nobody can deny this.

No, it means that natural selection is what pushes a population in a given morphological direction.

Do you really think that natural selection, which surely works, acts against and not in cocordance with existing phenotype, that is partly a response to epigenetic effect. This last is a fact i think.

Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.



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 Message 218 by Taq, posted 11-13-2012 10:59 AM Taq has responded

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Taq
Member
Posts: 8012
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 223 of 264 (679524)
11-14-2012 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 220 by zi ko
11-14-2012 9:25 AM


Re: The ubsurdity of "classic" elolution Theory.
What i am saying is that epigenetic changes pave the way( so guide) DNA sequence change.

How does that work?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by zi ko, posted 11-14-2012 9:25 AM zi ko has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8012
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 224 of 264 (679526)
11-14-2012 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 222 by zi ko
11-14-2012 9:50 AM


Re: The ubsurdity of "classic" evolution Theory.
Surely there was a degree of epigenetic change. It exists to all animals. It is a fact. Nobody can deny this.

Where did you show that epigenetics caused the giraffe ancestor to have a longer neck?

Do you really think that natural selection, which surely works, acts against or in cocordance with existing phenotype, that is partly respnsible to epigenetic effect. This last is a fact i think.

What evidence led you to this conclusion?

Natural selection selects for mutations that improve the fitness of the population. It doesn't matter if these mutations act against or in concordance with epigenetic changes. Also, I have already shown that epigenetic changes can be detrimental such as in the case of type II diabetes and fetal alcohol syndrome.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by zi ko, posted 11-14-2012 9:50 AM zi ko has not yet responded

  
Dr Jack
Member (Idle past 364 days)
Posts: 3507
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 225 of 264 (679577)
11-14-2012 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by zi ko
11-14-2012 9:25 AM


Re: The ubsurdity of "classic" elolution Theory.
I don't say so. What i am saying is that epigenetic changes pave the way( so guide) DNA sequence change.

And how does it do that? What reason is there to think it does? You're making really quite an outlandish claim here. Epigenetics is not a wonder solution capable of all kinds of wonders; although it's true that epigenetics is still a field in its infancy we already have a decent idea about the generalities.

It is your belief.

No, it's my informed opinion. Should you be able to provide evidence why I should change that opinion I will.

You don't answer my question.

Which question in particular do you think I haven't answered? Do you mean this?

My question is:Are giraffe's neck and front legs elongation etc epigenetic in nature, or due to DNA sequenc change?
And at which point of evoljtion the inevtable initial epigenetic effect was zeroed and was replaced by the DNA sequence change?

Perhaps I wasn't clear. The elongation of a giraffe's neck are primarily due to DNA sequence changes* and there's no real reason to think epigenetics has any real role to play at all. This means your second question is essential moot.

* - By the way, this contrast between DNA sequence change and epigenetics is kinda wrong-headed. Epigenetic capacity for change depends on the underlying DNA sequence. For example effective methylation requires CpG dinucleotide pairings at the very least, and appears only truly effective with CpG islands.


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