Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 85 (8937 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 09-19-2019 3:43 PM
34 online now:
PaulK, Tangle, Tanypteryx, Taq, Theodoric (5 members, 29 visitors)
Chatting now:  , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,
Newest Member: ssope
Happy Birthday: AdminPhat
Post Volume:
Total: 861,794 Year: 16,830/19,786 Month: 955/2,598 Week: 201/251 Day: 30/59 Hour: 6/3


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
891011
12
13Next
Author Topic:   What is a soul?
2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 4109 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 166 of 191 (376839)
01-13-2007 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Fosdick
01-13-2007 12:20 PM


Re: The soul undaunted
And your proof is...? Faith and belief are the business of the bicameral mind, as described by Julian Jaynes. When humans arise from their primitive bicamerality they become conscious and then are able to deal with facts. The fact that you have a faith fixation and must believe in everything you say and do is evidence of your bicamerality.

lol, Please. Julian Jaynes apears to be quite an excentric bird. The fact that you drop his name is most amusing. These views are of course based upon an intimate personal knowledge of "primitive" man. ;)

Thank you. Case closed.

I'm beginning to think you actually believe yourself. :)

Edited by 2ice_baked_taters, : No reason given.

Edited by 2ice_baked_taters, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Fosdick, posted 01-13-2007 12:20 PM Fosdick has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by Fosdick, posted 01-15-2007 1:21 PM 2ice_baked_taters has responded

  
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3758 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 167 of 191 (377192)
01-15-2007 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by 2ice_baked_taters
01-13-2007 10:42 PM


Re: The soul undaunted
2ice_baked-taters wrote:

Julian Jaynes apears to be quite an excentric bird. The fact that you drop his name is most amusing. These views are of course based upon an intimate personal knowledge of "primitive" man.


Well, whadda ya got to refute Jaynes' theory, besides calling him an "excentric bird"? If the issue here is the possession of a "soul," then the burden is on you to prove it. Since I can't prove that you do or don't have one, we are both fussing around with unprovable propositions. BUT, you are out of line to say that I have a "soul" when I say that I don't. Remember, I am NOT saying that you don't have a" soul." If that's what you believe, then OK, I'll respect that. The real question here is: Do you respect my opinion that I don't have one of those true-believer thingies.

—Hoot Mon


This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 01-13-2007 10:42 PM 2ice_baked_taters has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 01-15-2007 9:37 PM Fosdick has responded

    
2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 4109 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 168 of 191 (377280)
01-15-2007 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by Fosdick
01-15-2007 1:21 PM


Re: The soul undaunted
Well, whadda ya got to refute Jaynes' theory, besides calling him an "excentric bird"?

Julian Janes, The origin of conciousness in the breakdown of the bicameral mind.

The quality of having ‘two rooms , chambers, or main branches. The term was coined into a cognitive definition by Julian Jaynes — who uses it to indicate ‘two kingdoms’ of consciousness co-existing as potentially discrete entities in a single person. Jaynes’ model proposes that over a timeline covering the last 6000 years of human history we lost an anciently conserved aspect of human consciousness, trading it for a new form of memory and representational awareness. This aspect was one in which we heard voices, learned in seemingly impossible ways, and were by all modern standards profoundly different creatures. We were more akin to our models of advanced aliens in some dimensions, and at the same time more prone to what would seem by modern standards to be outlandishly irrational pogroms of various sorts. In effect, tantrums.

For example, back then, celestially authorized voices in our head could drive us around like cars...commanding us almost like puppets, in the name of a human sovereign — such as a King or Prophet — or in the name of God(s).

We used external toys to conserve memory of identity, tasks and locations, and our own memory was formative at best. Jaynes saw these matters as a mechanism of achieving tight social cohesion in groups, which led to dramatic new opportunities for benefit and stability.

If you choose to follow this persons beliefs that is your choice.
If you wish to step outside this topic and test these baseless claims by scientific rigor...that is your choice.

BUT, you are out of line to say that I have a "soul" when I say that I don't. Remember, I am NOT saying that you don't have a" soul." If that's what you believe, then OK, I'll respect that. The real question here is: Do you respect my opinion that I don't have one of those true-believer thingies.

I have not been out of line. I have stated what I believe. As have you. Proof has nothing to do with it. I believe you misunderstood me.
I do not believe I have a soul. I believe I am a soul. :)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Fosdick, posted 01-15-2007 1:21 PM Fosdick has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by Fosdick, posted 01-16-2007 2:12 PM 2ice_baked_taters has responded

  
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3758 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 169 of 191 (377374)
01-16-2007 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by 2ice_baked_taters
01-15-2007 9:37 PM


Re: The soul of a prince
I do not believe I have a soul. I believe I am a soul.

Once I believed I was a frog. And then a princess came by and kissed me. After that I wasn't a frog anymore. But I never became a prince...didn't have the genes for it.

—Hoot Mon


This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 01-15-2007 9:37 PM 2ice_baked_taters has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 01-16-2007 3:57 PM Fosdick has responded

    
2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 4109 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 170 of 191 (377404)
01-16-2007 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by Fosdick
01-16-2007 2:12 PM


Re: The soul of a prince
Once I believed I was a frog. And then a princess came by and kissed me. After that I wasn't a frog anymore. But I never became a prince...didn't have the genes for it.

This is faith and belief. This particlular topic is about the concept of soul and how we percieve it. If you have reasons for not believing you are a soul and have nothing to contribute to the concept that is fine.
Perhaps you would care to share what you do believe in? :)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Fosdick, posted 01-16-2007 2:12 PM Fosdick has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by Fosdick, posted 01-16-2007 4:49 PM 2ice_baked_taters has responded

  
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3758 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 171 of 191 (377415)
01-16-2007 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by 2ice_baked_taters
01-16-2007 3:57 PM


Re: The soul of a prince
2ice_baked_taters wrote:

Perhaps you would care to share what you do believe in?


I don't "believe in" much, because "believing in" is the business of true believers. Instead, I try to find principles that support my perceived models of reality. But OK, without the sarcasm, I do believe that these principles are important:

1. Karma—"what goes around comes around"—life lessons have taught me that.

2. Grace—a deep concept that measures a person's behavior in almost any situation.

3. Emersonian free will—we are all entirely responsible for who we are and what becomes of us.

4. Self-actualization—upward mobility on Maslows's need hierarchy.

Of course these things can be conflated with "souls," if you are so disposed, but I don't need to. I have enough trouble managing my own conflated personality.

—Hoot Mon


This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 01-16-2007 3:57 PM 2ice_baked_taters has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 01-17-2007 4:56 AM Fosdick has responded

    
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4172 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 172 of 191 (377444)
01-16-2007 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by 2ice_baked_taters
12-11-2006 12:31 PM


loss brain == loss mind
2ice writes:

It is you who have made the some sort of distinction between losing a limb and the capacity to recall a memory.

Loss of a limb does *not* equate to loss of mind!

You seem to think dementia is just a loss of memory.

Often personality changes occur. As will happen with brain injuries and stroke. We are talking about a fundamental change on who a person is - not just that they cannot remember where they last put the keys.

loss of brain == loss of mind (and even changes in personality)

For reading your posts you seem to imply that the ego/personality is some stable bedrock of existence and losing a limb represents a loss of functionality as does losing ones memory.

In addition, chemical imbalances can cause dramatic changes in personality for the better or worse.

How does that fit with your concept of soul?

What stage of ones life most accurately represents the soul?

Edited by iceage, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 12-11-2006 12:31 PM 2ice_baked_taters has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 01-17-2007 4:17 AM iceage has responded

  
2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 4109 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 173 of 191 (377497)
01-17-2007 4:17 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by iceage
01-16-2007 7:29 PM


Re: loss brain == loss mind
Loss of a limb does *not* equate to loss of mind!

And you have evidence that is empirical? I think not.

You seem to think dementia is just a loss of memory.

More accurately I think that it is a physical handical that prevents us from being all that we can be. It is my opinion. I may be wrong however at this time my guess is as good as anyone elses.

Often personality changes occur. As will happen with brain injuries and stroke. We are talking about a fundamental change on who a person is - not just that they cannot remember where they last put the keys.

Personality changes occur in people all the time for many reasons. This is just another reason. I happen to think of it as a handicap.
We can also carry a mental burden or handicap that can change us for life. Often these burdens can be dehabilitating or cause sickness and death. We can become different people by both enduring and being relieved of a burden. We change throughout our lives. This is nothing new. Where the line is between physical and mental or if there is one is open ended at this time. I will accept the honest answer that you hold a belief in this as I do.

In addition, chemical imbalances can cause dramatic changes in personality for the better or worse.

All lifes grand experiences are expressed in chemical imbalances.

How does that fit with your concept of soul?

If fits just fine.

What stage of ones life most accurately represents the soul?

The entire event.

So, if not a soul....what do you believe in?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by iceage, posted 01-16-2007 7:29 PM iceage has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by Kader, posted 01-17-2007 10:50 AM 2ice_baked_taters has responded
 Message 176 by Kader, posted 01-17-2007 10:55 AM 2ice_baked_taters has responded
 Message 177 by iceage, posted 01-17-2007 12:22 PM 2ice_baked_taters has responded

  
2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 4109 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 174 of 191 (377499)
01-17-2007 4:56 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by Fosdick
01-16-2007 4:49 PM


Re: The soul of a prince
I don't "believe in" much, because "believing in" is the business of true believers. Instead, I try to find principles that support my perceived models of reality. But OK, without the sarcasm, I do believe that these principles are important:

1. Karma—"what goes around comes around"—life lessons have taught me that.

2. Grace—a deep concept that measures a person's behavior in almost any situation.

3. Emersonian free will—we are all entirely responsible for who we are and what becomes of us.

4. Self-actualization—upward mobility on Maslows's need hierarchy.

These all seem to be expressions around the same general belief.
1 and 3 are nearly the same. 1:You get what you give, it all comes back to you. 3: When you wonder where it came from...look in the mirror.
4 Were you all that you could be and did you practice healthy 1
2:Underlay this all with a little humility.
Sound like what I learned in parochial school.

Of course these things can be conflated with "souls," if you are so disposed, but I don't need to. I have enough trouble managing my own conflated personality.

I appreciate your sharing the values/philosophy that you believe in.
This topic was on the concept of soul. I was looking more for your belief in that direction. I expressed my view of what a soul is. You have expressed that you are not comfortable with "soul" so, what do you tend to believe?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Fosdick, posted 01-16-2007 4:49 PM Fosdick has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by Fosdick, posted 01-17-2007 12:57 PM 2ice_baked_taters has not yet responded

  
Kader
Member (Idle past 1985 days)
Posts: 156
Joined: 12-20-2006


Message 175 of 191 (377526)
01-17-2007 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by 2ice_baked_taters
01-17-2007 4:17 AM


Re: loss brain == loss mind
You seem to think dementia is just a loss of memory.

More accurately I think that it is a physical handical that prevents us from being all that we can be. It is my opinion. I may be wrong however at this time my guess is as good as anyone elses.

Nop, your guess is certainly not as good as anyone elses. There are people studying in that specific field, and their guess far outweight yours.

In fact, they don't really toss a coin, they don't guess, they deduce.

My 2 cents


This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 01-17-2007 4:17 AM 2ice_baked_taters has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 01-17-2007 9:00 PM Kader has not yet responded

    
Kader
Member (Idle past 1985 days)
Posts: 156
Joined: 12-20-2006


Message 176 of 191 (377527)
01-17-2007 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by 2ice_baked_taters
01-17-2007 4:17 AM


Re: loss brain == loss mind
Loss of a limb does *not* equate to loss of mind!

And you have evidence that is empirical? I think not.


Here is an example

This guy cut off his own arm, so add in all the trauma of having to cut your own arm to survive.

he didn't lose his mind.

Is my example satisfy you ? There are more (google...)

Edited by Kader, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 01-17-2007 4:17 AM 2ice_baked_taters has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 01-17-2007 8:51 PM Kader has not yet responded

    
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4172 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 177 of 191 (377535)
01-17-2007 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by 2ice_baked_taters
01-17-2007 4:17 AM


Re: loss brain == loss mind
2ice writes:

And you have evidence that is empirical? I think not.

The case of Phineas Gage is very well known.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage

After his accident Gage became

quote:
"fitful, irreverent, indulging at times in the grossest profanity (which was not previously his custom), manifesting but little deference for his fellows, impatient of restraint or advice when it conflicts with his desires, at times pertinaciously obstinate, yet capricious and vacillating, devising many plans of future operations, which are no sooner arranged than they are abandoned in turn for others appearing more feasible. A child in his intellectual capacity and manifestations, he has the animal passions of a strong man. Previous to his injury, although untrained in the schools, he possessed a well-balanced mind, and was looked upon by those who knew him as a shrewd, smart businessman, very energetic and persistent in executing all his plans of operation. In this regard his mind was radically changed, so decidedly that his friends and acquaintances said he was 'no longer Gage'.

There is plenty of evidence, just research Traumatic Brain Injury or dementia.

iceage writes:

You seem to think dementia is just a loss of memory.

2ice writes:

More accurately I think that it is a physical handicap that prevents us from being all that we can be. It is my opinion. I may be wrong however at this time my guess is as good as anyone elses.

We are not talking about guesses, but hard clinical facts. These changes are not just a loss of capability (ie inability to walk, or remember things) but a profound change in the personality of the person involved. Ask someone who works in a Nursing Home.

iceage writes:

What stage of ones life most accurately represents the soul?

2ice writes:

The entire event.

The entire event changes and sometime dramatically before dying. How this "fits just fine" with the concept of a baseline soul you have not explained.

Anybody else?

Edited by iceage, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 01-17-2007 4:17 AM 2ice_baked_taters has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by NosyNed, posted 01-17-2007 12:39 PM iceage has not yet responded
 Message 184 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 01-17-2007 10:04 PM iceage has not yet responded

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8860
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 178 of 191 (377539)
01-17-2007 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by iceage
01-17-2007 12:22 PM


Head Injury and personality shifts
We are not talking about guesses, but hard clinical facts. These changes are not just a loss of capability (ie inability to walk, or remember things) but a profound change in the personality of the person involved. Ask someone who works in a Nursing Home.

You are correct. My wife was a physio treating the head injured. The incidence of rage is a part of frequent symptoms of head injury.

When I was in high school a friend's father had been head injuried in a minor car accident. About a year later there was some sort of accident in which his father died. It was sometime later that we talked about it. His father had changed utterly and was hurting the family in his violent rages. When his father attacked his sister he defended her with a knive and it was my friend who had killed his father.

There were no charges and no publicity. The nice man his father had been died in the car accident but it took a long time to realize that.

We are the "persons" we are. Brain damage can kill that person.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by iceage, posted 01-17-2007 12:22 PM iceage has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Fosdick, posted 01-17-2007 1:12 PM NosyNed has not yet responded
 Message 185 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 01-17-2007 10:17 PM NosyNed has not yet responded

  
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3758 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 179 of 191 (377541)
01-17-2007 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by 2ice_baked_taters
01-17-2007 4:56 AM


Re: The soul of a prince
2ice wrote:

Sound like what I learned in parochial school.


Put down?

I appreciate your sharing the values/philosophy that you believe in.
This topic was on the concept of soul. I was looking more for your belief in that direction. I expressed my view of what a soul is. You have expressed that you are not comfortable with "soul" so, what do you tend to believe?

OK, not a put down. Well, for one thing, I believe that communicating with true believers can be very frustrating if I try to do it sincerely. True believers are belief-oriented, of course, and thus they are not often capable of rational discourse. To wit; I tried to accommodate you rationally and failed. But I'll try again. Here is my key point: I believe that when I die NOTHING will happen to me other than natural disintegration and decay. With a belief like that I really don't place much value on my "soul." I also believe that the same thing applies to all other living organisms. The only "hope" that any critter has for "life beyond the grave" is in its progeny, which is a genetic affair—and there are no "soul genes" that I know of.

Once again, if you choose to believe differently, that's fine. Maybe "souls" are like laps—when you stand up or lay down they go away and nobody knows where they go. I believe that "souls" are devices used by religions to hold their faithful's feet to the fiire. Hey, maybe "souls" and "soles" are the same thing after all.

Question: Do "souls" ever stink?

—Hoot Mon


This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 01-17-2007 4:56 AM 2ice_baked_taters has not yet responded

    
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3758 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 180 of 191 (377547)
01-17-2007 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by NosyNed
01-17-2007 12:39 PM


Re: Head Injury and personality shifts
NoseyNed wrote:

When I was in high school a friend's father had been head injuried in a minor car accident. About a year later there was some sort of accident in which his father died. It was sometime later that we talked about it. His father had changed utterly and was hurting the family in his violent rages. When his father attacked his sister he defended her with a knive and it was my friend who had killed his father.

There were no charges and no publicity. The nice man his father had been died in the car accident but it took a long time to realize that.

We are the "persons" we are. Brain damage can kill that person.


VERY interesting personal observation. Trauma can alter or obliterate a person's "person," and head injuries have a long history of bad outcomes. In fact, trauma does not even need to come from physical injury—war trauma has a record of terrible results.

These observations certainly do point out that if a "soul" actually does exist it is not immutable. But why bother with a "soul" at all when "personality" will do for an explanation of what can be distorded by trauma?

—Hoot Mon


This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by NosyNed, posted 01-17-2007 12:39 PM NosyNed has not yet responded

    
RewPrev1
...
891011
12
13Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019