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Author Topic:   Is it Rape or Not
jaywill
Member (Idle past 200 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 256 of 260 (374888)
01-06-2007 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by iceage
01-06-2007 1:43 AM


Re: More Straining on the Gnat
One month to find closure over the extremely traumatic life event of having her parents, brothers and sisters killed. Keep in mind the age of the person we are considering. Now try to empathize a little here, can you see yourself in the position of these young girls?

No apologetics that I know of on this subject suggests that this is a rosy picture. However, if you really intend to be objective about it, there are not only the Levitical laws that Israel lived by but Ancient Near East customs.

There are mentioned practices and customs that are not explicitly from the Mosaic law which also had an effect on society. As we read the Old Testament carefully we have to assume that more than just the commandments of Moses were effecting the way people lived.

The priests also did not blindly apply laws without some wisdom and consideration. What about the record of the five women who enfluenced a fundamental change in property inheritanace so as to benefit disadvantaged women? See the daughters of Zelophehad (Numbers 27:1-11)

Now if you insist that you only want to see the darkest side of the treatment of women under God's providence in the Old Testament, I will not be able to bring any balance to that eagerness.

But if you consider all things objectively, while the situation was not perfect, it could have been a lot worse. And some portions of the Scripture assure us that women did make out alright. You have one entire book of Ruth to emphasize that a Gentile woman from an disdained nation, the Moabites, was blessed because she sought out God's people and their God.

The Moabites were forbidden to enter the congregation of Jehovah up to the tenth generation. Yet one entire OT book covers how God blessed a Moabitess woman because she sought God's people and their God.

One whole book in a male dominated library of books is there to prove that God was well able to bless a woman in desperate straits from an enemy tribe.

You also have the record of Rehab the harlot in Joshua 6 and an entire house of harlotry receiving mercy from God in Jericho. Now if an entire "whore house" in a city cursed by God forever, was delivered to safety, then I believe there were other instances in which God looked out over captive females.

Even Hagar the Egyptian slave servant of Abraham was provided for by God and blessed to produce twelve princes. She was somewhat taken advantage of by the great patriarchs Abraham and Sarah. Genesis leaves a footnote that she was not deserted by God.

My point is let's consider all things. And let's include God's record with some of these other women in our reasoning process. Then I think we arrive at a balanced portrayal of His providence in the lives of women in the Old Testament.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by iceage, posted 01-06-2007 1:43 AM iceage has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 200 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 257 of 260 (374890)
01-06-2007 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by iceage
01-05-2007 12:15 PM


Re: More Straining on the Gnat
Did you ever get the feeling that maybe the OT might just be some stories and description of a bronze age people and not necessarily the "word of god". I always thought it was blasphemous to attribute this to the creator of the universe but that is what your simplistic spoon-feed religious world view demands.

At first I may have had some kind of feeling like this. The process of me accepting the Bible as the word of God proceeded in this manner.

1.) Without me knowing it my heart was effected by sayings from the New Testament.

2.) I met Jesus Christ and got to know Jesus Christ.

3.) I began to read the New Testament.

4.) I noticed that Jesus and the New Testament took seriously the Old Testament.

5.) I figured that the integrity of Christ was beyond question. And if the Old Testament was taken seriously by Him it should be taken seriously by me.

6.) I started to read the Old Testament and received help in understanding it through fellowship of more mature Christians.

So no, I no longer consider the Torah or the Old Testament a scrape book of unrelated religious or secular stories. I consider it a vital part of the process of the gradual and progressive unfolding of God's eternal plan.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by iceage, posted 01-05-2007 12:15 PM iceage has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 200 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 258 of 260 (374905)
01-06-2007 12:07 PM


I always thought it was blasphemous to attribute this to the creator of the universe but that is what your simplistic spoon-feed religious world view demands.

This is because you think as a fool would think on this matter. You expect to go through the Bible as if it were a super market to pick and choose things which are palatable to your personal taste.

Those which agree with your disposition you might attribute to God. Those which might not be according to your disposition you won't attribute to God.

The end result is that you imagine a God that is only as a reflection of your personal tastes.

I prefer to take in the Bible as taking a full and balanced meal with all of the necessary vitimens and nutrients. It does not bother me that something doesn't fit my personal taste or disposition. I don't assume that the God of the universe is only a reflection of jaywill's opinion.

I count that the author of all life and all lives would be more all-inclusive. I count that He would be many faceted. I count that sometimes I would not agree with or like what this God would say or do.

And judging from my own life experience I expect that at some points there would be a tension between His ways and mine. That is until I mature spiritually and grow in the knowledge of God.

This is why the Apostle Paul's prayer for the disciples was that as they allow Christ to make His home in their hearts they also would expand and deepen their apprehension of the ways of God and His charachter:

"For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father, if whom every family in the heavens and on earth is named.

That He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit into the inner man,

That Christ would make His home in your hearts through faith, that you being rooted and grounded in love, may be full of strength to apprehend with all the saints what the breadth and length and height and depth are

and to know the knowledge surpassing love of Christ, that you may be filled unto all the fullness of God" (Eph. 3:14-19)

The purpose of the Bible is to put God into you. No more and no less.

The purpose of the revelation of the Bible is that a living Person Jesus Christ would come to in His resurrected form and make a home in your heart.

From with you He would cause you to be strengthened into that realm and sphere of your regenerated "inner man" and the breadth and length, and depth, and height of the personality and love of Christ would be more and more apprehended by you with the others believers.

You should come to the Bible for God Himself. You should open its pages with a willingness for God's Spirit to impart Christ into you.

When you search the Scriptures you should spontaneously also come to Christ the life of God:

"You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that testify concerning Me. Yet you are not will to come to Me that you may have life" (JOhn 5:39,40)

Something greater than the temple is here. Something greater than Solomon is here. Something greater than the law is here. Something greater than the land of Canaan is here in Jesus Christ.

So today you should come to the entire Bible with a mind to find Jesus and to let Jesus be imparted into your heart.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by iceage, posted 01-06-2007 12:54 PM jaywill has responded

  
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4174 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 259 of 260 (374923)
01-06-2007 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by jaywill
01-06-2007 12:07 PM


You are taking this topic off course. The topic is "is it rape?" if don't wish to debate this issue fine I will not participate.

I think there is plenty of evidence to establish that the puny vision of god of the OT did indeed allow rape for war booty (in addition to slavery) on several occasions.

It is intellectual dishonesty to convert "enjoy the spoils" to mean something like sitting around the campfire making smores while "enjoying" your new found little friends.

jaywill writes:


You expect to go through the Bible as if it were a super market to pick and choose things which are palatable to your personal taste.

Those which agree with your disposition you might attribute to God. Those which might not be according to your disposition you won't attribute to God.

The end result is you imagine a God only as a relection of your personal tastes.

Ha! That would be projection and is *exactly* what you are doing. You are avoiding the clear meaning of text and trying to make it say something else. You have been forcing fitting meaning to meet some larger agenda that is built on a flimsy foundation of faith - it is error.

jaywill writes:

It does not bother me that something doesn't fit my personal taste or disposition. I don't assume that the God of the universe is only a reflection of jaywill's opinion.

Great! Now that is progress. If you can admit that the described vision of god of the OT was a rash harsh god, then you have made progress towards intellectual honesty. That is not what you were doing earlier by straining definitions, ignoring context and norms of the day to force god into your view that god could not possible allow these things. I do know Christians that have this view and it is a more honest position.

From a rational objective perspective it is obvious that the Bible is not a revelation from God.

It is a untidy compilation, written by many different people, over many centuries, changed and edited from time to time. It contains legends, borrowed myths, fables, and even secular and erotic writings. The bible is no more a revelation from God than are the Iliad, the Odyssey, the Ramayana or the Mahabharata, books which the Bible resembles quite closely.

The principle value of the bible is that you can see ethics progress thru the ages form "love your Hebrew male neighbor" to "love your enemies".

I would encourage you to start a thread showing how you can apply NT philosophy to OT "topology". Interesting study, never seen it done before. However, yes there will be counter and challenging opinions and if you view that is overt hostility, then yes shrink from the task. Truth should be able to stand the fire, it is only falsehoods that need to be protected.

I am going to quit responding to you on this particular thread as you are more interested in preaching non-sequitur's than debating the subject. You have avoided the material I provided and continuously escape on a scripture quoting agenda.

Edited by iceage, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by jaywill, posted 01-06-2007 12:07 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by jaywill, posted 01-06-2007 9:16 PM iceage has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 200 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 260 of 260 (375021)
01-06-2007 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by iceage
01-06-2007 12:54 PM


You have avoided the material I provided and continuously escape on a scripture quoting agenda.

The title of this thread was Is it Rape or Not?

I gave my reasons why it was not rape.
Case closed.

Thanks for giving me an opportunity to dialogue, and oh yes to preach too.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by iceage, posted 01-06-2007 12:54 PM iceage has not yet responded

  
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